MG42/59 Booster cone needed.

[Spiggs]

Hi all, I need some urgent help. Im looking for a 308 booster cone for a project gun.
It seems no companies out there can ship to me here in South Africa.
What other options are there? Its for an MG42/59 chambered in 308

Do you know of any Euro suppliers that will ship. Or even the process to follow to be able to obtain the part in the USA

All help appreciated thanks

[Spiggs]

This is what I need.

The one in the picture is for a M53 in 8mm. Its to big and doesn't fit in my gun. I believe the 308 version is a little smaller, the actual part.

[Der Alder]

Would it be possible to change to the MG3 one piece flash hider/booster? Seems those would be easier to come by.

[Blanksguy]

Yes.

[42rocker]

That's what I do when I shoot .308.

Later 42rocker

[Spiggs]

A quick update guys. I tried inter changing a MG3 flash hider with the Beretta's and can tell you it doesn't screw on. Its a little to small. Also thought of trying a MG3 barrel bearing/booster in place of my bearing with the hope of screawing my flash hider on. . It doesn't fit at all.

Im trying to source an original from Italy but it seems this will take many months, lots of paper work etc.

I have however noticed that an MG34 booster cone almost fits if that makes any sense. Im wondering if I shouldn't attempt turning down a 34 booster and giving it a try?!

Regards

[Blanksguy]

Spiggs,
Remember to cut all of the slots at the rear or you will have too much pressure.

Next.........have you looked at just having a local Machine-Shop make one of the correct size on a lathe near you (?).

Another option might be (if laws allow) to order a Blank-Firing Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" and having the center/exit-hole cut to the correct size on a lathe near you. This might get around the "laws" as it is not for "live-firing"......just training/making-noise. Blank-Firing Booster-Cups/"Nozzles" should be available in England and other countries........heck, a Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" can't be that expensive to make locally.......the first couple firing should "heat-treat" it.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[Der Alder]

Hmm...I'm surprised it does not fit with all the interchangeability from the MG42/53/3.

I'm not doubting, as the Berretta 42/59 could very well be an oddball being it had a unique FH/booster, but are you sure its not very old hardened cosmolene preventing the MG3 FH from threading?

I only ask because I once received a MG3 FH/booster from RTG that was old stock and didn't seem to fit until I sprayed it and worked it till it finally loosened up. I think it was a combination of old carbon build up and petrified cosmolene.

That said would another option be to take an 8mm booster and add some weld to the opening, then drill it back out to make it smaller to the correct size needed? Or turn it down if the outside dia was to big?

Just throwing ideas out...

Please keep us posted on how you make out.

[Spiggs]

Hi Gents, thanks for the replies, sorry im only getting back now but its been rough out here is SA at the moment.

Back to business...

The flash hider from an original 42/3/53 don't fit at all. Ive tried the lot.
The flash hider on the Beretta seems to have a different ID?! I would have to turn down a 34 booster, but to be honest im not keen on destroying a collectable if its not right, especially when licences are so difficult to obtain out here!

I managed to find a part number for the part im after from Beretta. The part no is WK-W 9008-0000.13 this as per the manual with exploded diagram.

Anybody have any idea how I can import this part then please let me know. I can obtain the relevant permits from the local authorities for such an import. At this point im desperate.

The Italians ive tried, but they don't seen keen on shipping anything to Africa.

I would be happy to machine one from scratch if I can get my hands on a sample to work from. Or even a CAD drawing or something.

Thanks again gents for all the help. Its difficult to find reliable information out here.
If you guys want me to take more detailed pictures close up of certain parts I have no issue with this, just shout.

Regards

[Spiggs]

Infact im even prepared to jump on a plane and come visit if it may mean success.

Ive been thinking about flying over and attending all the machine gun shoots in the hope of finding something! Im just concerned that the Beretta version may never have landed over there!?

I don't want to travel in vein!

[Spiggs]

Sorry to post like this in a row but as I think I post :-)

The idea of turning down an original cone crossed my mind. I believe I could turn the cone down to size and make it fit. My concern is if it would still be thick enough to be safe?! The cone material would be very thin after this, on an original.

Let me measure an original 42 cone and calculate what material "thickness" would be left on the cone after machining to fit the beretta.

[Der Alder]

IMO turning down the more common type cone might be your best bet.

Another option...
Could you have a MG3 FH re-threaded to match the threads on the Beretta bushing being the Beretta part is so hard to get?

Or on the same token, depending on the look you want, could you have a MG42/53 type FH re-threaded, then use the older type barrel bearing and use a booster with a .308 (smaller) nozzle similar to the MG1 .308 set-up?

This keeps your gun original only modifying a FH'er in the event you find the correct part some day, but at the same time gets the gun running.

Also if the Italians won't export the part, perhaps one of the countries that they exported the MG42/59 to might, who ever that may be. I thought I read they supplied arms to some North African countries who in turn might be less tight fisted towards your country.

[Blanksguy]

Spiggs,
I took the liberty of barrowing a few of your photos to explain to MG42-Board-Members that your Itallian MG42/59 is totally different as for parts at the Flash-Hider/Booster-Cup/"Nozzle", etc. as the photos below will show it is more like an earlier attempt by Beretta at an MG3 for function.

One part that I can not see is that "Cup" setting inside the Flash-Hider. Please remove and take photo......we may be able to help more if we see the cup. Next......is that the "Cup" sitting inside/on top of the Barrel-Bearing (?).

I believe that what you will need is either that specific part (Booster-Cup/"Nozzle") for the Italian MG42/59 in 7.62x51mm NATO/.308-Win. for your conversion. That could be made on a simple "Lathe"........or, as others have posted, make parts from other MG42 and/or MG3 parts.
The easiest part for you to make from what I can see at this point would be that "Cup"........the other parts are "heat-treated".....and you do not want to modify the threads on the front of the receiver of the MG42/59.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[Spiggs]

I will try put together a video over the weekend if I can find the time. Might be a bit easier that just pictures. Thanks again for all the help guys

[Blanksguy]

Spiggs,
Also.......in the first-photo that I posted of the front/muzzle of the receiver with the Flash-Hider off...............does that next section screw onto the front of the receiver.......or was that "flair" and first set of gas-vents machined into the front-section of the receiver (????).

If so, then the Italian MG42/59 is a different receiver than a standard MG42/MG3/M53.......but if that front section below the Flash-Hider screws off also (?).....then standard MG42/MG3/M53 parts may work.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[Spiggs]

Hi Gents.

Just a quick attempt at explaining my dilemma, using a cell phone camera. I apologise upfront for the terrible quality of the video. I hope this short video explains my problem regarding missing parts.

Once this video has been viewed I intend deleting it.

As always I appreciate all the assistance. I hope this makes my problem easier to understand. I struggle to explain the problem properly using written text if that makes any sense.

Cheers guys!

http://youtu.be/PBwArBkA4JE

[Blanksguy]

Spiggs,
I had a chance to review your short video.......and it brings up a few questions (or "options") that you may (or may not) want to try.

First......
You have an Italian/Beretta MG42/59 which is different than a German MG42/59.......although the differences are small......some parts will not work with you present Italian/Beretta MG42/59.
From what I am seeing in your video........the Italians changed the receiver at the front (remember that I asked if that front-section on the receiver/under the Flash-Hider could be unscrewed) so that standard MG42 and/or MG3 parts will not fit.

I did a "search" on-line and could not come up with a parts-diagram of what parts are suppose to be there......so I do not know if a Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" is missing......but it appears that the Italians designed the Flash-Hider-Assembly to be similar to how the German MG3 works (IE: The Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" was machined as part of the Flash-Hider on the Beretta MG42/59.

At this point......to give you some ideas to look at, I ask:
1: Does the gun operate now in 7.62x51mm/.308 (?)......or what issues is it having (?).
2: What caliber do you want to fire this gun in now and in the future (?).......or are you just trying to make it look more like a WWII German MG42 at the front (?).
3: Does the Flash-Hider have a removeable Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" on the inside of it.....or is it machined as one-piece of steel (?).
4: Have you tried to unscrew the front-section of receiver (under the Flash-Hider)......or was in manufactured as one-piece with the receiver (?).
5: Is keeping the receiver as originally manufactured a requirement (?).
6: Inside the front of the receiver (where the Barrel-Bearing sits), is there four (4) "key-ways" cut into the inside of the receiver (?).

After I receive answers to "all" of those questions, I can give you some suggestions.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[Spiggs]

Hi,

1: Does the gun operate now in 7.62x51mm/.308 (?)......or what issues is it having (?). Yes it does operate if you insert the barrel bearing unside down but it shoots very slow, maybe 500-600 rounds a minute. Also by shooting it like this I see it has started to cause damage to the barrel bearing
2: What caliber do you want to fire this gun in now and in the future (?).......or are you just trying to make it look more like a WWII German MG42 at the front (?). I want the gun to remain as original as possible, im not trying to make it look or function like any other mg42's
3: Does the Flash-Hider have a removeable Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" on the inside of it.....or is it machined as one-piece of steel (?). The flash hider on this gun is more similar to an older mg42, just an empty cavity. No built in booster cone or removable cone
4: Have you tried to unscrew the front-section of receiver (under the Flash-Hider)......or was in manufactured as one-piece with the receiver (?).This piece is one piece on the receiver and cannot be removed
5: Is keeping the receiver as originally manufactured a requirement (?). The weapon really for purposes of collectability needs to remain as close to factory original as possible
6: Inside the front of the receiver (where the Barrel-Bearing sits), is there four (4) "key-ways" cut into the inside of the receiver (?). No there is only one "key way" cut into the receiver. I did try fitting a MG3 bearing. When I compare the mg3 bearing to the Beretta bearing I find the key
ways or lugs if you like to be the only difference

I hope this helps

[TactAdv]

Spiggs......

Pretty good discussion already on your options, so am not sure I can add much but I'll throw out some thoughts at least...

-First off, your gun was not "made" by "Beretta", not in the normal sense of the word at least. The vast majority of the parts will be found to have made under subcontract actually by another old-line Italian gun making conglomerate concern, Breda s.P.a. -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ%C3% ... esto_Breda

During this period, Breda was heavily contracted to make parts for, among many others, the Italian service version of the MG-1/1A/MG3, the Italian proprietary MG-42/59 program via Beretta as the prime contractor. This became officially the NATO combined service cooperative alliance to build the "MG3" type guns for all participating aligned countries- each country agreeing to supply to the pool a certain number of specific common parts. Beretta actually made very few of these parts until very late in the program. Ultimately, due to heavy political pressure, H&K became the prime producer of ALL spare parts within this program at the end. Parts actually manufactured by Berretta in Gardone are marked with a prominent 'PB' as below, this on a shared-production 950gr "heavy bolt" assembly from my original Austrian MG-74 variant:



I have never seen this apparently earlier version of the MG-42/59 front end components as you have here- later production were fully interchangeable with the "original" MG-42 style at least, which is to say the common MG-42/M53 two-piece booster+nozzle combination, -WITHOUT- the extra relief holes on the nozzle mounting bushing that yours seems to have?? I'll also throw this out, here is an old picture, ostensibly from 1980, of an Italian Paratrooper with his partially disassembled 42/59, note the front end, specifically the booster cone bushing area with those extra relief holes, so these must have persisted in service for quite some time.

I think at this point you have to accept that minus being able to source an original part abroad, you're going to have to come up with something to replicate one. Looking at your pictures and video, I think there are two reasonable paths to consider:

-One, you can take the UNDERSIZED MG-42 booster and bring the O.D. up to the needed fit measurements. Easiest way to do this is going to depend on how much it is off. If it is only off by thousandths of an inch/mm, I'd consider taking it to a plating shop and have them build up a chromium plating layer-by-layer. This trick is good for up to about .030". Remember to allow for needed fitting as ALL surfaces will build up! A good chrome shop can prepare the part to plate only the area(s) desired.

-The second trick would be to take thin copper foil sheets, and wrapping them around the steel nozzle to get the needed thickness, then hot-dip braze them in place. Same concept, but you could also tack weld thin steel foil sheets and spot weld them through. Or, if you can get a GOOD machinist, you can simply turn a thin steel sleeve slightly undersized, then heat-shrink-fit it over the existing nozzle.

Best bet in my mind would be to simply machine the needed part exactly to size, as a new-made part. It is not a hard part to copy. Make sure you use an appropriate alloy for both heat properties and hydrogen embrittlement properties.

Conversely, if you can locate an MG-42/M53 booster cone that it is oversize, I see no detrimental reasons not to try thinning it out on a lathe, down to the desired O.D.

-TomH

[Blanksguy]

TactAdv,
Great photo.........with question:

Is that a short Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" between the Flash-Hider and the Barrel-Bearing in your photo (?).
I don't remember seeing one in Spiggs's-video.
Could he be possibly missing this part (?).......or that it is there (stuck" unside the Flash-Hider (?).

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired