British capture mg08's

[jmann]

Does anyone have any detailed pictures of German 01's and 08's that were captured by the British and converted to 303 for service in the British army?
Curious as to what feedblocks, boosters, locks, ect were used. Looking for more detail than what's in the paintbrush.

Thanks

[42rocker]

Good Luck... Always interesting to see new material...

Later 42rocker

[bmg17a1]

The conversion of the Brit Maxims from the .45 G.G. and M.H. rounds to .303 happened in 1891 but smokeless pwder cartridge converison wasn' until 1892 or 93. The change to .303 was accompanied with a major change in the receiver dimensions of the 1903 Maxims from wider to narrower, the narrower spec being the standard for all Maxims thereafter. I have an Enfield Maxim lock, #16 if I recall correctly, that is for a blackpowder .45 Maxim and it is half again wider than a standard Maxim lock. any of th epost 1903 enfield Maxm parts would fit into any german Maxim.
The post 1889 Maxim parts would fit any Maxim regardless of where it was made. Any post-1900 German Maxim acquired by the Brits would have been converted to .303 as easily as just swapping out the parts and using .303 Enfield parts.
Sadly there are an extremely small number of privately owned Enfield Maxim parts in the US. I have the .45 Maxim lock and a brass Enfield fusee cover, dated 1899. I know of a ocuple other collectors who have one or two parts, but that's it.
As for literature, I haven't come across any that delves into the technical details of MG caliber conversions aside from the note in Paintbrush of the very late publication dated 1917 mentioning the converisions to .303 of German guns.
would b enice to find out more. Also would be nice to find more blackpowder or any Enfield Maxim parts!!

Bob Naess

[jmann]

Thanks Bob,
I guess what I was eluding to was there a general spec the brits used for converting captured 08"s into service guns for their 303 cartridge and returning those guns to the front (like the germans did with the "s" marked guns) If so, what were the prescribed changes and what types of parts did they use? Just curious what they would have looked like.
I assume they would have ground off the sledmount trunnions and reamed the lower hole for tripod attachment and added some pintle pads, but then what about the spring for the spent cartridges?
What type of booster would have been used?
What about feedblocks, (mod german ones or swap out)?

I have seen pics of mg01's modified but not much on the 08"s.

Thinking this would be an interesting recreation for some junky old 08 parts for a post sample build.

[bmg17a1]

Well, you are answering your own question. Look at the pic of the MG01 in Dolf's book and it would be no different for an MG08. Pretty straight forward. As noted above, all the .303 Enfield parts will fit into the receiver, as well as feedblock, barrel and lock, so that's an easy swap. Either use a sled mount or bore the front pin hole for the MKIV tripod and put in an appropriate ejection port spring. Use the same booster.
Not sure why this is so mysterious. They did exactly what you would do, right? Maybe you are looking for some printed publication detailing the "requirements" and 'specifications', but the Brits are not like the Germans and did things by the seat of their pants when necessary. I doubt they converted a whole lot of them anyway, and I would guess did it until they ran out of parts to use. The German parts would be easy to convert to .303, just open up the 08 extractor to fit the rim, and hog out the feedblock a bit and put in a small guide at the fornt. Barrels would have to be made, but since they already had been making .303 Maxim barrels for years, no problem there. I can't see much of a reason to spend time, money and manpower on converting MG08s when they had a much lighter and, IMO, actually superior .303 MMG in the Vickers as well as their own old Maxims to use. The Brits had plenty of MGs to use and could get more from the US if the war dragged on.
The US tried to convert the Maxims after the was, but found that it wasn't practical.
The Germans were the kings of using captured small arms and used absolutely everything that they acquired and in the original calibers, and didn't convert the MGs. However, there is a persistent myth the Germans converted .303 Lewis guns to 7.92 but that just isn't preactical due to the caliber specific receiver top on the Lewis and the necessity of making 7.92 Lewis drums from scratch. The .303 feed openig would have had to be REDUCED and lengthened to reliably pass the 7.92 and no exmaples of any .303 Lewis guns with that mod seem to have been found. And where are all the 7.92 Lewis drums? Ironincally, I have a Mauser made and marked Lewis drum in 7.92, but there is a suspicion that it was made for a German experimental drum fed LMG that never materialized.
Anyway, doesn't seem like much of a conversion issue, really, but maybe I'm missing something here. I don't have any other info as I said before and I doubt there is much more.....


Bob

[jmann]

I guess what I was hoping to find was a real spec for the converted 08. Better yet a pic of one like the pics of the 01 in the paintbrush. The differences I noticed about that gun (the mg 01 in the paintbrush) from its German relatives were

the addition of a booster of the type similar to a Russian gun. Now I realize the 01's were often fielded without boosters so I guess the Brits could have added one of theirs, but would they have changed the booster on an 08 to their type as well?

The changing of the safety to a squeeze type.

The addition of a brass plate on the top cover.

The sled attachment trunnions and water drain valve were ground off.

Enlarging of the lower hole and addition of pintle pads to accommodate mounting on a tripod .

My questions were not as to ask how to change the caliber of a maxim, but rather to know exactly how the guns would have appeared so I could build a faithful reproduction. I can't assume the same things done on the 01 guns converted to "b" pattern as was done to 08 guns converted to "a" pattern.
If they had three different "g" pattern guns (a,b, and c) then there has to be something outlining what exactly was done somewhere.

I can grind the sled lugs off a post sample 08 and call it a "g" pattern gun but that's not really a faithful reproduction. If I do one I would want it exact down to the markings on the brass plaque on the topcover.

In your opinion would they have used the mark 2 type muzzle attachment on the 08's?
Do you think they would have changed the rear sight to a tall one like on the Brit service guns (similar to the early Russian guns)?
Did the Brits ever officially adopt the 1901 pattern vsm gun or did they coast directly from the earlier brass guns straight into the vickers? (my reasoning here is on later guns would they have used the 1901 pattern vsm feed bock instead of the large brass scroll block pictured in the book.

Sorry to make such a mountain out of a molehill but you don't know unless you ask. I want to have a pretty good idea of every component before I start grinding lugs off a water jacket.
Thanks for your help Bob
John

[MarkFinneran]

Seems my first reply did not make it! I think there is only one example of a German maxim having been converted by the British, and that was for experimental purposes and now held in the Pattern Room in Leeds. However the Australians (and probably New Zealand too but unconfirmed) converted thousands of WWI German captured MGs in prep for any Japanese invasion before/during WWII. This was done on a large unit/depot scale and not by individual armourers. German MGs are scarce in Australia despite the enormous WWI war booty 'bring back' efforts and those that are known of are often .303 conversion. Many v harsh Govt 'initiatives' have destroyed thousands of historical items by dumping into the shark infested sea!! Anyway - I will locate an article from an Australian magazine that deals specifically with WWII Australian .303 conversion and see if it helps. Mark
ps Happy Christmas everybody.
Picture attached - not a .303 conversion but nice nonetheless!!

[bmg17a1]

The Maxim conversions that have been of most interest to me are the conversion of the Russian 1910s to 7.92, especially the ones pictures in Painbrush in the Spanish Museum. From looking carefully at the pictures, the guns are not as described, and there's information missing. These converisons are all one offs, as well, like the Brit.
Apparently Enfield continued to manufacture Maxims until 1917 which suggests that there were parts available to convert the German guns. As Dolf points out a and b type converisons of 08s and 01s were done with existing Maxim parts. Converting an 08/15, the c type, presents different problems as an HMG Maxim feedlbock will not fit without alteration, but internals and barrel would fit.
Alterations to the booster hole in the endcap might have been done for the 01 style booster, or not. Nothing wrong with the German booster. There are so few mods required to make the conversion and the chance of variations in choices of which parts to change beynd the essential parts, it just doesn't seem possible to make any completely accurate and finite determination about what was 'offical' spec and what wasn't. These conversions were clearly one offs and would be haphazard at best with too many possible combinations of of essential and non-essential parts compared to an arsenal 'program' and 'production' line for conversions such as happened with the Finn captured Russian 1910s.
The Finn/Russian conversions, even with the large numbers that were arsneal processed show a wide variety of different types and vintages of part used, including the addition of the Finn made parts. From the many examples of these guns that have been imported, it is very clear that there were only a couple 'required' parts and the rest was left up to the depot and mechanics. Functional guns were the objective.
A .303 round will go through a MG08 feedblock, in any case, so with minor alteration to the upper feed pawls to accomodate the different shape of the .303 case, the feedblock is taken care of. Wopuldn't even need to use a Brit feedblock. With extractor, barrel conversion and rear sight added in, the basics are done. Mounts and other stuff could be supplied with available resources and receivers fitted accordingly.
I have a brass feedblock for a Maxim, marked VSM which appears to be in 7.92, is not the early style with the large scalloped feedway and is close to the '04 style Maxim feedblock in appearance. It fits into an MG08 perfectly but I am not sure for which model it was made. If these were around, were there lots of them or? There's so little info on the Brit Maixm hardware or examples to be seen, it is vey frustrating.

Bob

[mg34nz]

jmann here are pics of an 08/15 feed block I have that is a .303 conversion done by the New Zealand Army.
a number of 08's and 08/15's were converted for home guard use in the early stages of WWII.An old friend of mine's home guard unit was issued with one such gun.

MG34NZ