Questions Before Beginning

[Assassin42]

I'm sure this has already been covered a few hundred times (haven't finished going through the entire forum).

I am a retired US Army veteran, background in combat arms. Most of my experience is with the M-2 BMG and M-249 SAW. Both of which I was "notorious" for stripping down well past what was aloud during maintenance. Because of that and my experience with both weapons I was picked many, many times to teach the PMI for both before ranges. I am not an armorer or a gunsmith, have never built my own weapon before.

I and a couple buddies are thinking of trying to build at least 1 semi-auto MG-42/M-53. If the first one is successful and not too much of a headache, then we might try another one (after a nice long break). Right now I am looking at getting parts and kits from the following companies (so first question, how reputable and helpful are the following):
BRP- for parts kit as a starter
http://www.brpguns.com/categories/Parts ... arts-Kits/
Robertrtg- .308 conversion and miscellaneous parts to make up for missing from parts kit
http://www.robertrtg.com/mg.html

Second Question: What parts do we need to make sure are changed to make sure it is semi-auto and will not cause issues with ATFE if they show up wanting to look at the weapon?

So far on this one I have seen the pistol grip assembly with sears need to be changed to a semi-auto ONLY assembly. Which should also change it from open-bolt to closed bolt (seen references to this on this forum). Also the inclusion of a bolt block to prevent proper full-auto operation.

Third Question: The change from open-bolt to closed bolt. From my experience with both types of weapons the closed bolt requires a hammer to strike the firing pin forcing it forward into the primer. The open bolt, when it is in the forward position as it rotates and drops back, the firing pin is exposed hitting the primer (no hammer involved). So will the bolts need to be changed also to allow this? My guess is yes.

Fourth Question: Is there a step by step video I and my buddies can watch that will take us through each step of the build process? Preferably free, since the parts and labor will cost enough as is.

Fifth Question: Is the only part that needs to go through an FFL holder the completed rear receiver, even sans internals? The rest of the parts even the barrel shroud should fall under the category of replacement parts which usually do not require an FFL in the transfer.

Last Question (for now): We are toying with the idea of modifying the receiver and shroud to allow it to be mounted on the M-122 tripod most likely using the pintle mount for the M-60 or newer model for the M-240. Is this feasible and also legal? This is a preference thing, I know most purists will think it a sacrilege not to use it on a standard German designed tripod. We also would like to be able to use the T&E mechanism that goes with M-122.

Our plan is to first assemble all the parts (with spares in case we screw up anything). Then take the barrel shroud and rear receiver to a nearby metal shop for any required precision cutting and welding. Get the assembly to someone to blue/parkerize/or paint it. Then install the internal parts (if need be get a gunsmith to help with parts we can't figure out). Take it to a gunsmith to gauge it for proper headspace, etc... Test fire it and enjoy. Since it qualifies as a rifle in semi-auto it would not have to be registered in our state. We are going to check on legality of the whole assembly operation though first with law enforcement.

[waffendude]

welcome to the fourm
let me start to answer:

1. both are good dealers to do business with
2.make sure you have made the "semi" mode before fabricating the receiver(grip stick and bolt blocker)
3.-yes ---closed bolt -- fal or ar-15 fire control parts work good---fal has a harder "punch" than the ar15
4. i have not seen a video
5.if you buy a "compete" receiver ---then it must go through a ffl---(some buy the 3 cut rears and reweld then to semi specs----or the brp receiver halfs)
6.i dont know about the mount
These are not real hard to fab---they do seem to be picky with ammo----if you are going the 8mm route use the rommy 8mm the yugo has real hard primers--
keep asking questions---as there are some real smart guys here with lost of good info
waffen

[drooling idiot]

Our plan is to first assemble all the parts.
Then take the barrel shroud and rear receiver to a nearby metal shop for any required precision cutting and welding. [you must be present when this happens to claim you made the gun]
Then install the internal parts (if need be get a gunsmith to help with parts we can't figure out). [this is where this forum is a big help]
Take it to a gunsmith to gauge it for proper headspace, etc... Test fire it and enjoy.
We are going to check on legality of the whole assembly operation though first with law enforcement.
[Good luck with that, most LEOs,etc have no clue, and will tell you "NO" because its easier than researching yes.]

I think you should consider buying a semiauto 42, if you feel your going to be this dependent on help from outside of your build group. If your paying for labor like welding the economics of building your own just don't work. If your looking for experience paying someone else doesn't give it to you.
(above sounds kinda dickish, not intended that way).

[Assassin42]

Our local police chief is a friend of my family (knew my dad since they were small kids) and he probably would kick the issue to the city attorney to look up for him. But he would most likely get an answer for us.

I am leaning to buying the receiver from robertrtg.com, to make the build slightly easier. I have some experience welding but it is limited to oxy-acety torch with some brazing years ago in high school. As for watching the machinist, I would love to but I know I would have to follow their shop safety rules. If I tell them that I must be present nearby to observe for federal law requirements I might be able to. I would talk to them first before even getting the parts. So I will need to know what type of welding with be required for best results (question #7)? My guess is weld in the bolt block before attaching the barrel shroud for legal (maybe even take pics for proof to put in my build book with the order slips showing origin of parts).

I want it built for .308, easier than 8mm to get a hold of. I plan to sell the 8mm parts after the build is done to reduce overall costs. (And use the money to buy more belts )

I looked up a completed semi-auto yesterday on gunbroker, and the only one they had posted had starting price of $3800.

Yes, I do want the experience in the build (at least on mine). That would make it easier to do my own repairs later if needed.

Question #8: I noticed there is a foreign parts limit requirement by ATFE. IF I modify the charging handle, replacing the German style handle with one from something like a M-60 shouldn't that make it a "US made" part? Keep the slide bar but replace the handle itself.

I am guessing grip stick translated to US military jargon is a pistol grip assembly.

Question #9: Found this yesterday http://www.projectguns.com/mg42.html
My guess is this will be my best option for pictorial reference since no one knows of a video? Side note, I did find a person selling a build video on ebay, BUT sellers location is Thailand so there are huge questions on is it a legal build for in the USA. I'm being cautious and say no.

[42rocker]

Good Luck with everything
I believe that the receiver half's that rtg sells are the one's that brp makes. The main thing to remember that brp receivers are made for long cut barrel shrouds. Today's parts kits mainly have short cut barrel shrouds. Wiselite used to make rear receivers that were made longer in the front, allowing you to use shorter cut barrel shrouds, sadly they are no longer making them. As far as machining if you buy a hand grip that's already built apex had some as I believe rtg and brp does, then no machining that area. Next bolt, ok, I believe that there are at least 2 folks out there doing that for you, therefore no machining. Believe that their cost will be far less as they have already done the setup stuff, check brp and this site. And I believe that the rest can be done with dremel and file, if needed. Of course you have the welding clean up to do. Which some might do with mill, most use hand grinders, dremels, etc.
Check pirate's stuff on his website and his build and several others that are on this website.

Legal 2 things install block so no full auto bolt and open up grip slot so full auto grip stick does no fit. And of course all of the only minor stuff.

Keep asking questions as needed.

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

"So will the bolts need to be changed also to allow this? My guess is yes."

Not really, almost all of the bolts used in semi auto mg42's are redone original bolts. From what I have heard one of the companies out there is working on making his own bolt setup. But most folks just convert their old bolt. Drill and redo and insert firing pin. See the brp website and check out his bolt setup. There are several that will redo your bolt or you can.

Later 42rocker

[drooling idiot]

Question #8: I noticed there is a foreign parts limit requirement by ATFE. IF I modify the charging handle, replacing the German style handle with one from something like a M-60 shouldn't that make it a "US made" part? Keep the slide bar but replace the handle itself.

I am guessing grip stick translated to US military jargon is a pistol grip assembly.

You need to modify so many pieces and parts theres no worries about the foreign parts count.
the bolt gets remade (now us part)
the gripstick gets remade (now us part)
the charging handle gets modified (now us part)
receiver gets made (us part)
etc
I remember thinking there was no way to build a SA42 and violate the parts count when the gun was designated a rifle and it was a hot issue here. you just have to remake so many major components theres not enough left on the NoNo list that are used by the 42. there should be threads here going into detail on the subject.

[scoutfal]

As for the mounting to a m122 tripod, isn't it the same as an m2 tripod except the front pintle and the t&E adaptor. There is a guy Bergflak that was selling (Danish?) adaptors made by DISK that went on an M2 and mounted an MG42. Can't make one for what he was selling them for.

[Assassin42]

If there is already an adapter for mounting the MG-42 on a US tripod, great! What is the website address so I can look at it. Otherwise I figured I would have a machinist weld on the required pieces to the receiver assembly after everything is welded up.

Which would work better for a finish on it after all the welding, grinding, etc.. is done? I'm guessing paint will not last as long. So what is the next most economical, but will last?

[salt6]

In his book on the MG42 Folke Myrvang dicusses the T24, the US reversed engineered MG42.

Here is a pic of the tripod setup for it. Also IIRC it used BAR bipod legs.

From the website Forgotten Weapons

[42rocker]

Salt6
Thanks for that pic as it reminds me that I have a barrel shroud that has a upside down "u" welded to it. Now I always thought that it went to some type of a tripod and just forgot about it. Now I see how it could have been used.

On that subject that welded piece just looks funny. I think that if the "u" had just been bolted to the bottom it would still have worked and be removable. Mind you use locking nuts so nothing bad happens while firing.

Assassin42
Weapon finish... There are several nice topics about that on this site. On pirates build he used to show how to use a pvc tube to park his mg42. A friend used a long narrow tank to do his. However the Germans blued theirs. I'm thinking about parking then doing a duracoat over it (using a blued like color). If I do that then it should hold up to any weather, not really planning on shooting in the rain, but. This choice is up to you after you look at some of the great photos on this site. And of course what you can do unless you want to ship it out after test firing.

"" what is the next most economical, but will last? "" --- parking (my thoughts)
You could also by hand, do cold bluing, cheap and holds up if done right. Might look closer to the true German finish.

Good Luck

Later 42rocker

[Assassin42]

Thanks for the pic of the MG copy the Ordnance Department did back in the 40s. That does help. My plan would be to use a pintle from the M1919 most likely and a regular T&E mechanism. I was thinking of placing the mounting bracket for the pintle on the barrel shroud and the mounting point for the T&E in front of the pistol grip assembly on the rear receiver. Never could stand the T&E being basically mounted on the trigger guard.

I won a handbook on do it yourself parkerizing and a translated MG-42 manual tonight on eBay. So those will go straight to the reference pile for reading for when I would begin.

I noticed some exploded diagrams on the forum. I plan to print them off and use them as a guide when I buy the parts (just mark them off when I get them). Plus keep some copies for reference during a build. I don't doubt this is already posted (but I haven't found it yet). What are some good references to have on hand before and during the build?

I did hit a huge snag today. The new job I was suppose to be getting here soon is now in question. If I don't get that job (which includes a big pay increase) then my build at least will be on hold indefinitely.

[42rocker]

Assassin42
FYI one of the good guys on this website is jbuam who does the German manual translations. Check out his website and pm him about which ones that you might need and which is best for the rebuilder.
Buying from him direct might save you money.

http://www.GermanManuals.com

As far as park goes check out pirates website. And also check http://mg34.com/ for park solution, I believe their park comes out black, check about colors. Also check out the tutorial on parking on the 1919a4.com website that lobo did.

Good Luck

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

Something else on tripods rtg has the German one for $289 and up. Check it out. I understand that you seem to like the M-122 tripod system but check out the mg3 tripod system. Some come with optics.

http://www.robertrtg.com/mg3tripod.html

Later 42rocker

[Assassin42]

Talked to the local police chief, and his gut feeling was that it is legal to build a semi-auto MG-42 in our state. He gave me a number to call at the state police to confirm it. Called them and the guy I talked to said it is legal under our state's laws as long as we follow ATF guidelines and the barrel length qualifies as a rifle and not a sawed off under state law. I asked about possession of any full auto capable parts that may be mixed in a parts kit. Even the possession of a single sear (not even in the weapon) counts as ownership of an illegal machine gun and you go to prison. So I either purchase each piece individually to make sure or if I buy a kit I need to make sure the seller removes all full auto possible pieces before it even crosses our states borders.

Just to confirm, that because it would be a semi-auto for personal use I do not need a letter of permission or whatever from ATF? I just need to have the documentation to prove to them it was built as a semi-auto from the start and the weapon to prove it under inspection.

[drooling idiot]

I wouldn't stress about the sear. your kit will come with FA parts thats no big deal. you will most likely be sending your gripstick out to be rebuilt into semiauto. when it gets rebuilt tell the guy to keep/trash the FA sear if you feel better about not having it in your possession.
The FA sear will no longer fit into the SA gripstick and would have no ability to function in a converted closed bolt semiauto. You don't need it, you can't use it even if you try. I sent my grip out to be converted years ago, got the box back with the original FA parts loose inside. reused the trigger as a shoe and the safety but just tossed the sear in the trash because i wasn't going to reuse it. I never even thought about "constructive intent" until you posted.

I think there is a state (Washington?) where you can't be in possession of FA parts at all. Other than there its just when you have FA parts AND an SA gun that they will try to say you intended to break the law. (mind readers i guess)

No letters of permission require to build, wouldn't stress on documenting your build was a SA. the welds for the demill will show it wasn't smuggled in as a FA gun. If its in SA configuration when its found, then its still the Govs. burden of proof it used to be a FA.

[Assassin42]

I did ask the state policeman about the full auto parts in the kit.
I told him,"I would like to start with a base kit of parts from the original 42s and there might be some full auto parts inside the kit. The parts required by ATF to be removed for importation would already have been removed by the seller. What would happen if there turned out to be a single full auto part, say a sear that I wouldn't even use?"

Reply,"all full auto parts are required to be registered with ATF. Even if you have a single full auto sear you will go to jail. Our state recognizes the parts alone as an unregistered machine gun and you go to prison."

Me: "even if it was a single sear?"

Reply:"yes"

I had already read that the night before in our state's laws online. So unfortunately, whatever kit I get I have to make sure there are no full auto parts (not even a grip stick that would be changed to semi-auto) when it arrives. During that time period I have it till it would go to a machine shop the state police can say I had an unregistered machine gun during that time. Chances of that is low, but in today's political climate I am not going to take that chance. So, semi-auto all the way. No, the state I am in is not Washington so there are more than 1 state with the zero tolerance for full auto parts.

I want to get either the receiver halves or the completed receiver (even though that has to go to an FFL holder). I don't want to try re-welding the cut receiver yet. I am checking on finding a machine shop to do the receiver welds. A buddy of mine is helping with that, he has welding that needs to be done on one of his firearms anyways. If I get this new job I plan to start getting parts in a couple months. Figure it will take about 6 months to gather all the parts and accessories I will need for a build (get what I can each month without getting overextended money wise). As long as I cover my part of the bills, fuel, and setting some aside for emergencies my wife doesn't have an issue with this yet. I don't doubt she will be firing it as much as me when it is done.

[42rocker]

I really think that is interesting about the full auto parts. Your not stating what state that you are from in the mid-west. But I have a problem with the reply that you received from that officer and I think that you should have that checked out with someone else. But I'm in the state of Fla where things are a lot more relaxed.
If you go by that fa statement it means that you can't receive the following.
1. sear
2. bolt body
3. bolt head
4. firing pin
5. ? any part of the rear receiver? unless it has the fa bolt blocker installed or material removed so a fa gripstick can not be put in.
6. ?grip stick body?
I'm thinking that any part that we have to change you can't receive in your state.

Interesting I have to think about how many folks in your state may have received mg42/m53 parts kits from centerfire or sarco or AA and are now breaking the law without knowing about it.
Please double check with someone else as sometimes rules get bent to the way someone wants to see them.
If you let us know about what state you are in then we might have someone on this website that knows your states laws top to bottom. I Know that several officers in this area don't have the rules down and make mistakes.

Later 42rocker

[Assassin42]

Minnesota

The people in the state for the most part are gun owning conservatives, or at least libertarian. But our capitol is stacked the other direction. This relates to a law passed in the late 1990s after the wonderful media blitz about school shootings and how you can supposedly modify any semi-auto to full-auto in minutes (read an article they did in the legislators official magazine before this was passed as law). I did read the law and it did mention possession of parts count as actually having a machine gun.

609.67 MACHINE GUNS AND SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUNS.
Subdivision 1.Definitions.

(a) "Machine gun" means any firearm designed to discharge, or capable of discharging automatically more than once by a single function of the trigger.

B&C are about shotguns

(d) "Trigger activator" means a removable manual or power driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that, when attached to a firearm, the rate at which the trigger may be pulled increases and the rate of fire of the firearm increases to that of a machine gun.

(e) "Machine gun conversion kit" means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled, but does not include a spare or replacement part for a machine gun that is possessed lawfully under section 609.67, subdivision 3.

Subd. 2.Acts prohibited. Except as otherwise provided herein, whoever owns, possesses, or operates a machine gun, any trigger activator or machine gun conversion kit, or a short-barreled shotgun may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.


The rest is about who can legally own a machine gun and short barreled shotgun in the state. The guy I talked to if I remember correctly was in the firearms division. The main guy that handles these questions was not in so I was forwarded to someone else. This guy's response were automatic, no had to look it up first stuff. His biggest hang-up was that I need to make sure the barrel was the right length under our state's laws so it did not count as a sawed-off (16 inches). He repeated that several times.

In a related statute it actually lists by model and manufacturer what the state classifies as semi-automatic military assault weapons. You require a purchase permit to get one, same with pistols.

We're glad we don't have to register anything yet. But I'm sure that is hiding in the shadows waiting for just the right event also.

[42rocker]

Assassin42
Used to live in Minnesota and drove up from Fla to be at the DA machine gun shoot in Red Wing, Minn last year. I think that DA and tomcatshaas and 12thWaffenSS and a few other folks that live in Minn should be jumping in on this one shortly with some info on this one. I know that I'm missing several other Minn folks and hope that all of those folks will jump in and add their info.
The law on crank fire items did surprise me. Happy to say I did not bring one up from Fla were they are legal.

Well lets see what a few of the Minnesota folks have to say. Should be interesting.

Enjoy life

Later 42rocker