3,000 meter indirect fire exercise,,, talk and interest

[42rocker]

This started on another post and started to drift from that post to restarting it as it's own topic..

Started as Re: Wehrmacht MG42 Qualification Test

Post by 42rocker » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:39 pm
Ok, lets set the date, next year Bil's house April 1st. 2012 at high noon.
That time and place, John B using his books will lead at least 3 mg42 machine gun crews in a indirect live fire exercise using mg42/m53 and lafette's and MG Z 40's (optics's) to see if at 3,000 meters (that's approx 1.8 miles) we can deliver a fly swatter style hit on a target.
I was first posting this a little tongue in cheek.... But in thinking about this... THIS would be a really GREAT OUTING......
Don't have JBaum's book in front of me about this, but I seem to remember it's in one of the books and doable. Think about the math trying to link together 3 different machine gun nests to deliver their fire on the same place...... Ok, those of you that have worked with timed arrival of artillery fire from different position's might think this would be easy,,, buttttt. 3 or more machine gun pits, different height's and different angles, of course all within say 200 yards of each other....
WOW,,, helped to shoot up a few cars in the past from Fla to Minnesota... But, being part of a live fire crew,,, trying to set up everything first then opening fire at a distance where it would take a really good scope to see what happened 3,000 meters away. Not just search fire or walk it in.... But planned out.....
Ok, What about it..... Has anyone in the past done anything like this???????

A little off topic, but still on "Qualification Test" idea, as the German Army did (according to JBaum's book's) training such as this....
If not Bil's house, really anyone know of an area near the creek where some of use could get together for something like this or anyone have an interest.... I know,,,, LARGE AREA needed,,,, with correct level headed folks with the correct equipment.... But think about how cool to say that you had been part of something like this... That's if it was done right of course and the wrong car or house did not get shot up... Again sorry about having to use DA's truck at that Minnesota shoot last year. Of course I guess that a smaller distance could be used first.... Say the target only 1/2 mile or 1 mile away....

********* Qualification Test ********** Good Luck on finding any of the original Wehrmacht MG42 Qualification Test ... As several folks might be interested in seeing it....

Anyone interested in a shoot with the target 1/2 mile or more away???????
Ok, JBaum brings his deckungswinkelmesser and other equipment and the rest of us bring our "slide rules" and lots of paper. And of course a few mg42' and laffette's and the rest of the needed stuff..... My God, what an interesting field exercise....... Bet no-one has done something like this in years......
Talked with one of my other clients Friday, had not seen Joe in about 3 years. At any rate he was a Master Sargent in the US Army Stationed In Germany. Both his father and father-in-law fought for the Germany Army (did not get released from Russia till 49/50). While there his was able to talk his way into doing several things with the German Army. He did state that he was able to get some of his buddies into training exercises with the East German Army using m3's (post war mg42's). I believe that he stated that he and several others received German training awards, part of joint training in the 50's 60's stuff. Award's may not have been on the mg3's... Next time I see him I'll ask, hope it will not be 3 years before I see him again... He lost his wife during those 3 years...

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

re posting from jbuam

Post by jbaum » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:19 pm

Setting up 4 MGs parallel to each other using the original equipment of the day for concentrated fire on the target is exactly what is explained in the indirect fire manual. It's totally do-able. Interesting concept. I have a 42, lafette, and deckungswinkelmesser (no MGZ). We'd need a few more guns and lafettes, a few more scopes, the triangulation slide rule, a distance measurer, an aiming circle, and about 2 miles of countryside with no occupants.... the last one would be the hard part. Several thousand rounds of 8mm, and armor shielded video cameras to record the impacts on the dummies and vehicles we'd have in place. Cool.

That's something that hasn't been done in decades.

[42rocker]

re posting

Post by mksshoot » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:25 pm
A long way from KC but LOTS of room & LOTS of possibilities- coming up June 3,4,5 Casper Wyoming- Northern Rockies Annual Machine Gun & Cannon Shoot. You can download the flyer at wyonfa.@bresnan.net or search on the net for WYONFA. I couldn't load the link here but I'll post more info later if anyone needs it. All welcome!

mksshoot

[42rocker]

re posting

Post by 42rocker » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:55 pm
Ok, I think this is starting to go off on the topic that started... I think I'll repost my post and others as the start of a new topic area... This is getting interesting.....
John, have a mgz and a mgz40, I can only use one at a time, so you would be welcome to use one of them... I just glanced at my Myrvang and on page 343 it shows a brief part of the exercise with (as you stated) 4 machine guns. I know that I could not be ready for a June 3,4,5 Casper Wyoming- Northern Rockies Annual Machine Gun & Cannon Shoot. That's this year, maybe next year.... Any other site's????
Anyone really interested?????? I could see a lot of email's and planning to do something like this....

Off to start this on a new topic..

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

Ok, new topic and re posts done....

THAT said I'm interested in doing or at least talking about something like this happening....
email's and talk is cheap, I can do a lot of that. However would be interested in trying to really plan and do something like this..... If the right people were interested it could be done.

Anyone else.... Make for a really great video..... Picture of target then a few seconds later....
God forbid, tracer's at night.... After doing it during the day of course...

Dan, know anyone in the Ky. area with enough land to make this happen. I know that you might be interested in being at something like this.

Video -- I know that a video cam was set up at the DA Minn shoot. Lets see, Video cam, laptop sending video link to internet to be picked up with laptops at machine gun site. Anyone got any ideas on this???

Later 42rocker

[dwmmg08]

This sounds totally fun, I'd love to do something like this with my MG34 and MG08! How about we increase our odds and fun by just having a MG42.us MG shoot and get together?

I should think that we'd want to have a good range, where we could do this exercise:

a fun place to shoot for all else as well, with some targets

perhaps something else going on (militaria show?) (mg show?) that we could all go to as well, or just keep it a fun day shoot.

Thoughts?

Glen

[TactAdv]

r
A long way from KC but LOTS of room & LOTS of possibilities- coming up June 3,4,5 Casper Wyoming- Northern Rockies Annual Machine Gun & Cannon Shoot.

mksshoot

Yep!! I'll be there as always. Since this is one of my local area shoots, wouldn't miss it. If anyone else here is going it'd be fun to meet at least.

-TomH

[Taurus454]

Actually did indirect fire with M2HB at FT Sill, OK. Problem is seing point of impact for adjustment. Unless you get some type of cloud to see where rounds are impacting you won't know where you are hitting. Haven't tried it, but suggest you use incendiary rounds and hope they go off on impact.

Tom

[42rocker]

Talk and interest on 3,000 meter indirect fire

Later 42rocker

[Matt]

I have 50 rounds of 8mm spotter ammunition that I would donate if this gets set up. Round impact at that distance is very hard to see unless you are shooting into very fine dusty dirt. - Matt

[Taurus454]

As I may have said before, I work for the Army Test and Evaluation Command. We own the Army Test Centers. I could check on the policy of using a military test center for civilian use. Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona is fairly centrally located and has lots of space. YPG is also known for having the cheapest rates and is picked by alot of agencies for that purpose. I would need to know roughly how large of a terrain box would be needed and if there was anything special we might need as well. If someone prefers a better test center, please let me know and I can check into it. I know we rent space out to contractors to test equipment so it is possible we could "rent" space at a military test center. There would more than likely be a cost associated with it and we may need to collect a fee to use it. I don't know how much of a cost but I know we would more than likely have to pay for a range control officer as a minimum to oversee operations.

If this is worth my pursuing, please let me know.

I think as part of an entry fee we could issue relpica soldbuch with photograph, replica certificate (if they exist) and replica badges (if they were issued). If there is no certificate or badge, we could create one. I could also see if there is an NRA badge that could be issued.

Thoughts or ideas, welcomed!

Tom

[Hartek]

I know this is an ancient thread, but I am interested in something like this. These days we could use drones to safely check the area and record the impacts from above to get a great view of the beaten zone. The only thing we would need is a richtkreis or other appropriate aiming circle along with at least one MGZ optic. The process is identical for artillery and I understand it fairly well. If anyone has the land to do this I can get a drone, I have an MGZ40, and can try to get at least a soviet aiming circle.

[JBaum]

an actual aiming circle isn't necessary. a transit with degree marks (not just the level) would be a good substitute. You've read the translated manual for indirect fire, right?

[Hartek]

I've read the manual you translated, though I don't have access to it at my current house. It being a military manual, and German at that, makes it very stiff and opaque as to the principles of deflecting from a reference point (be it a siting stake, RK 31/aiming circle, or surveying tool) based on ballistic data and azimuth/elevation relation to the target. You could probably get away with "minute of field" just using good GPS/elevation data and a prominent object to deflect from.

[JBaum]

Stiff and opaque? You should have seen what it looked like in German. I thought it was pretty straightforward once I got it into English and rephrased. You'll need to already understand triangulation and the related math (high school geometry and shooting theory plus a little bit of using a transit or aiming circle), but it's actually pretty simple.

The indirect fire manual for the mortar (also translated) was considerably more complicated regarding setting up multiple mortars firing on the same target, but with understanding the geometry of it all, it's still pretty simple.

[42rocker]

Wow, I started this back in 2011. Back up again.

Drones?? Not something to be thinking of, back at the start of this thread. Now Wow, of course.

Even a get together to do a talk bout on this subject would be great.

Anyone interested in a Fla get together?? I know the Hernando Sportsman Club would allow such a talk without problems. See link at bottom.

We could use the back of the lunch area and if enough people maybe the main clubhouse. Of course, talk only, we only have a 200-yard range.

Anyone else have a talk about and compare interest??

Later 42rocker

Tampa Bay area, Fla

https://www.hernandosportsmansclub.com/index.html