do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
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howiebearse
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do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
Just a heads up on previous warnings on using German Laqured steel case ammunition. This is part of MY German 7.9 collection of which most of these rds were looking really good when I bought them for my collection but as you can see they are starting to rot through from the inside. I wouldn't use them for other than display or for collection purpose. Even the round stored in the test tube is going. (it is a Beshuss rd) I would pass this on to all my friends in this hobby that may get some of this ammo and try shooting it. If it is going from the inside out you wont know how sound the cases are and you could have a catastrophic failure.
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Re: do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
Nice collection of rounds! I use to work at AMSAA (Army Materiel System Analysis Activity). One of their directorate is responsible for inspecting Army stored ammo for servicability. Never got into that line of work but if I hear some pointers on how to store and prevent corrosion I will pass along.
Tom
Tom
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howiebearse
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Re: do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
In my collection these are the only rounds that are showing deterioration . Off all the German ammo I have these are the ones that are really going bad. Thankfully they are the common ones although I probably wont find another of those head stamps to replace them with. I collect by loading lot date and code I also have a 50rd belt with the same problem. I wouldn't fore any of that stuff anyway its collectors stuff now. But if anyone here finds the need I would pull samples of each different lot and date to see whats inside. Not worth loosing your health or a fine weapon over.
Re: do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
We found the same thing on some large lots of WWII German ammo I shot and also pulled bullets on to try to them out that a now deceased friend had stored for years for shooting his MG's with- I was able to separate some of it out and check it. The brass case ammo was all fine, sure fire ammo. Some steel case stuff was totally fine; it fired fine, and was in good shape. Some others, were corroding terribly from the inside, and came apart. Most rounds fired very poorly from that last batch too. Upon studying them, I found out:
All the steel case that was fine was laquered both inside and outside of the cases, and all were totally free from rust.
All the rotting stuff appeared to be laquered on the outside surface of the case only, or very thinly. I'm not sure how they did this, but it was clearly not coated inside the cases. Most of these cases were dated 1944. All were Green colored.
The inside and out coated cases were just fine, and usually dated earlier. It was a mix, some were even late dates.
IF there were signs of corruption visible from outside the case, the rounds were uniformly ruined.
If no signs, earlier dated stuff could be sorted out, and ran. Late stuff was a real who knows on it, some were very rotted, but had no outward signs.
Hope this helps!!!
All the steel case that was fine was laquered both inside and outside of the cases, and all were totally free from rust.
All the rotting stuff appeared to be laquered on the outside surface of the case only, or very thinly. I'm not sure how they did this, but it was clearly not coated inside the cases. Most of these cases were dated 1944. All were Green colored.
The inside and out coated cases were just fine, and usually dated earlier. It was a mix, some were even late dates.
IF there were signs of corruption visible from outside the case, the rounds were uniformly ruined.
If no signs, earlier dated stuff could be sorted out, and ran. Late stuff was a real who knows on it, some were very rotted, but had no outward signs.
Hope this helps!!!
Re: do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
Oddly,
I shot about 1000 rounds through a 1919 a few years back. Now, it had been stored properly since the 1970's since being purchased from "Vic's". Some was Brass, some was Steel. Whether it ran well or not, depended more on the bullet, some were nickel and some copper. The Nickel ran very well in almost all cases. The brass case with copper bullet was the worst. What I mean is number of misfires. I came home with less than 50 duds total though.
No Sperations! But it was annoying. The only other 8mm I took that day was the Yugo that had the long bullets, and my barrel had a short leade, and kept jamming. SO I tried these, and they worked great. I do believe all mine was 38 and 39 though!
Running old ammo is risky though. I don't think I would run it through a MG42. If I ever get a MG42 or M53 semi.....
JW
I shot about 1000 rounds through a 1919 a few years back. Now, it had been stored properly since the 1970's since being purchased from "Vic's". Some was Brass, some was Steel. Whether it ran well or not, depended more on the bullet, some were nickel and some copper. The Nickel ran very well in almost all cases. The brass case with copper bullet was the worst. What I mean is number of misfires. I came home with less than 50 duds total though.
No Sperations! But it was annoying. The only other 8mm I took that day was the Yugo that had the long bullets, and my barrel had a short leade, and kept jamming. SO I tried these, and they worked great. I do believe all mine was 38 and 39 though!
Running old ammo is risky though. I don't think I would run it through a MG42. If I ever get a MG42 or M53 semi.....
JW
Re: do not use Laq steel case ammunition from WW2
Lots of common things can be said to be going on here with this situation......mostly some basic chemistry and metallurgical processes, but some basic understandings of the wartime exigencies of production also help explain why this is so likely.
For one, by late '43-on, Germany was beginning to come part at the seams from an industrial perspective, a LOT of "required" protocols and industrial processes were being shortcut and circumvented more and more. Even then, there were those (like Herr Speer) who knew the War was lost and having lost the momentum the goal became simply to produce ANYTHING and get it to the Front as the expectation for longevity was no longer there in large measure- no one was worried about storing ammo long term anymore, immediate consumption rates well exceeded production rates for many items and so long as it arrived at the Front AT ALL, that was good enough. More than likely, the HWA specs for steel cased ammo were drastically relaxed in just such areas as things done to preserve it for long term storage and environmental protections above some minimum standard, like moving to waxing the individual cardboard boxes instead of water-proofing the cartridges themselves as was common. Reducing the interior lacquering step was probably a very economically wise decision.
Secondly....ALL propellant loading operations, then and now, are conducted under normal atmospheric conditions of SOME ambient humidity. Combining the available water in the encased air with the various and sundry Nitrated compounds used in the propellants, usually some form of Nitrocellulose recipe then, resulted in the breakdown of the nitrated compounds to form simple Nitric acid, a very potent agent against ferrous metallic structures. What you are seeing is literally an acid corrosivity attack of the steel walls. Since it is, in chemistry terms, a weak acid in that formation, the attack takes many years, but under any molar density.....nitric acid is a powerfully corrosive agent.
Thirdly, it is remains highly likely too that the mechanical bond joining the projectile to the steel case, in terms of the original crimped hermetic seal was broken allowing in more ambient air over many decades increasing the formation of nitric acid, this time more easily as the propellant compounds have suffered aging effects ("nitro weeping") allowing any available moisture to combine more readily now as time progresses. Add to that the inevitable lack of care and protection the bulk ammo has seen in decades of careless storage and exposure......heat is the killer of nitrated compounds mainly.....all kinds of reasons why interior corrosion was originally highly likely and more and more effective with passing decades.
As stated by others, not much to do about it save for visual inspection and blanket exclusions of later head stamp dates as being automatically suspect.
-TomH
For one, by late '43-on, Germany was beginning to come part at the seams from an industrial perspective, a LOT of "required" protocols and industrial processes were being shortcut and circumvented more and more. Even then, there were those (like Herr Speer) who knew the War was lost and having lost the momentum the goal became simply to produce ANYTHING and get it to the Front as the expectation for longevity was no longer there in large measure- no one was worried about storing ammo long term anymore, immediate consumption rates well exceeded production rates for many items and so long as it arrived at the Front AT ALL, that was good enough. More than likely, the HWA specs for steel cased ammo were drastically relaxed in just such areas as things done to preserve it for long term storage and environmental protections above some minimum standard, like moving to waxing the individual cardboard boxes instead of water-proofing the cartridges themselves as was common. Reducing the interior lacquering step was probably a very economically wise decision.
Secondly....ALL propellant loading operations, then and now, are conducted under normal atmospheric conditions of SOME ambient humidity. Combining the available water in the encased air with the various and sundry Nitrated compounds used in the propellants, usually some form of Nitrocellulose recipe then, resulted in the breakdown of the nitrated compounds to form simple Nitric acid, a very potent agent against ferrous metallic structures. What you are seeing is literally an acid corrosivity attack of the steel walls. Since it is, in chemistry terms, a weak acid in that formation, the attack takes many years, but under any molar density.....nitric acid is a powerfully corrosive agent.
Thirdly, it is remains highly likely too that the mechanical bond joining the projectile to the steel case, in terms of the original crimped hermetic seal was broken allowing in more ambient air over many decades increasing the formation of nitric acid, this time more easily as the propellant compounds have suffered aging effects ("nitro weeping") allowing any available moisture to combine more readily now as time progresses. Add to that the inevitable lack of care and protection the bulk ammo has seen in decades of careless storage and exposure......heat is the killer of nitrated compounds mainly.....all kinds of reasons why interior corrosion was originally highly likely and more and more effective with passing decades.
As stated by others, not much to do about it save for visual inspection and blanket exclusions of later head stamp dates as being automatically suspect.
-TomH
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