MG08 w/sled and zf12 on gunbroker

[bbigbore]

If I get it there is about 99% chance I will have a fairly nice MG08 sled to sell and a good chance I will have two to sell along with a Junker.

If you need to sell a sled, you have a buyer here

[IMBLITZVT]

If you need to sell a sled, you have a buyer here

Yeah I have at least three people interested. Now if I can just get a gun to go on top of one. I will also probably sell off a MG08 Parts kit to cover it.

I have a like new Finnish Mount for sale if you are interested. Lot cheaper!

[bmg17a1]

For the sake of discussion, and to add some reality to the issue, I brokered the following MGs in the last nine months or so, and all to guys in the 35 to 50 year old age bracket, and also all relatively new MG collectors:
DP27/28 @ $32k; Steyr MP30 @$14k; Colt MG52A @ $33k; MG08/sled (non-DEWAT) @ $17k; MG08/sled (former DEWAT) $14.5k; C+R 1917A1 @ $35k; 1919A4@ $14k; Brit Lewis $9.5k. Currently have an 08/15 and a Jap type 98 in process of sale each at $10k.
All of the above MGs were in very good plus to excellent minus condition and took a while to sell, with a fair number of tire kickers, but they did sell at the prices close to or at what the sellers wanted from the sale. The buyers wanted the guns and were willing to pay a "fair" price for them. I believe in "fair" prices, and regard every vintage MG as having unique and separate value, but at some point one that is fair to the buyer.
Personally, I don't subscribe to the rather common view that all MGs for sale comprise an MG "market". There are MGs that can be fairly evlauated at "market" prices, like H&Ks, M16s, UZIs, A4s, FNCs, and others simply because there are quite a few of them available at any given time and it is price competition that really makes a market. This is not true of vintage MGs, which mostly are offered infrequently and one at a time, so there is no "market" in the practical sense of the word. They are unique, antique collector's items and not subject to the same competetive price leveling seen with the "commodity" MGs.
As bigbore notes, the price is what people are willing to pay, but that is more complex that it suggests. It depends on who is selling the gun, where it is offered, how it is offered, etc. The Gunbroker 08 is a good example as the seller has been bashed for misspelling "Maxim", accused of knowing nothing about the gun, giving out conflicting or inaccurate info, of having too high a reserve, and other negative comments. All this may be true, but the conditions of a Gunbroker auction are far different that those of an individual or a dealer selling a similar MG which occur ubnder totally different circumstances. The current bid doesn't reflect anything, IMO, about the value of the gun, as auctions never really tell anything about the buying/selling of the larger collecting fraternity or values. It would be the same if the bid went to $25k. For exmaple, at the Bruce Stern auction by Julia Auctions, a 1909 Hotchkiss Portative sold for $32k. At the time one could be purchased a comparable exmaple for about $10k from a dealer or an individual wirth some looking aorund. Was $32k the "market"? Not in my view, as every vintage MG is an isolated sale. Auctions are vey unreliable indicators of the value of unique items. They can be way too low, way to high or aobout fair, which is what makes auctions so compelling.
Anyway, it is interesting to discuss values, especially given the rotten economic conditons with many scramblng to pay their bills, and not much relief on the horizon form rising prices an other impediments to free spending. In my experience, over the last couple of years, despite the downturn, the people who REALLY want to buy MGs and all the accompanying equipment, are still actively in the game and are looking and buying. As would be expected, they are more cautious, asking more questions, wanting more for their money, but that is how it should be in good times, too. My $.02.....

Bob Naess

[IMBLITZVT]

Bob,

I agree with much of what you have to say. However there is one important fact that you also need to count in. You! Let face it, what is a better deal? A MG08/15 for $8000 from someone you don't know and knows little to nothing about it. Or one for $10,000 that Bob Naess has look over and you know you exactly what you are getting? Now to some, those working to pay the bills, maybe the $8k. However a lot of the MG market is made up of those who have more money and less time. So an Extra $2k for you sign off on it, to know its working and they don't have to waste their time screwing with it... A lot has to do with how much the people buying from you value their time and there knowledge of the MG market place. I think this has a lot to do with why you are still able to bring in a good price on MGs. It seems to me that most other MGs have taken a bit of a hit on prices. I follow M11s (because I have one and am always looking for parts) and they have gone from $3K for the cheapest down to $2.6K. So thats at least more than 10% off the high. However can you (Bob) still get $3k for one, I have no doubt you can! You are dealing with the top end of the MG world. The top of any market is not hurt as much by the economy as there is always someone making good money. And lets face it, the day I make my millions, I will stop screwing around looking for MGs and just buy them all from you and will not care as much about the price as I will know I am getting quality from you. Its like buying a Ferrari from Enzo vs getting one from some guy out of a newspaper ad... its well worth 10-20% more!

Oh and I don't think I have bashed this guy. I have hours now of phone time with the man. He does not know MGs and will tell you that. I have been dealing with his pictures and he does not always take the most useful pictures, not that I think he is trying to hide anything. So I have just said to be careful! This guy is not into MGs and these are not his guns. It has been painful as I have been trying to get a price, any price, from him since late november of last year!

As far as auctions go, unless the item sells, I think it means nothing as to what the item is worth. One auction also does not mean anything as you can have two people with more money than brains. Check out the last LMG parts kit that came up on GB. $2.5K for a shell? Crazy!

[dwmmg08]

Interesting. Bob, I'm sure you're right, in that the vintage guns seldom or occasionally come up, and are or should be, worth what they're worth. That said, I noted the 08s with sleds you yourself sold were for very different prices. I think the whole MG field, just like aircraft, RV's, Motorcycles, and any other (lets face it) luxury toy/ collectable market is soft right now, because of the economy. Lots of people are having trouble right now, even business owners who were making good money 2-3 years ago. I know the economy around here seems to be finally starting to move again, but this area slowed down a whole lot last year and for the first 6 months of this year at least.

Matt's also right, in that you're getting better sales and prices at least partly because you're like the ferrari dealer; you can tell someone it's working, and they know it's working. That is not true of a lot of dealers, and especially not true of auctions or individuals!

Just my .02

Glen
Altus Ok.

[dwmmg08]

I've been checking out the photos of this gun pretty hard that he's posted, and the feedblock appears intact, (both arms are there, you can see them in one photo) and the rails do not appear to be welded to me either. That leaves me with the thought that this really is what the seller says it is, a 1950's dewat, in that the barrel is likely welded up, and the barrel has then been welded to the receiver under the feedblock, where you can't see it in any pictures, but can be very hard to fix, much more so than the 1919 Deactivation guns. Bob could speak more to that, but I've seen some of these 1950's guns that required some real skill to know how to fix. Some took almost no work, and have run for years with the remains of the weld, others were much more extensive, and the whole area the barrel goes into needed rebuilt. Without being able to get a good picture of the area, It's hard as heck to know how much $$ to fix we're talking about.

I was curious, and emailed the seller for pictures, or a description of the topcover and sled markings, and I got back the helpful answer that he was on the weekend, and would send me info next week. Of course the auction will be over next week, so that's about the strangest answer from an auction seller I've gotten in some time, and it took 2 emails to him to get that!

It seems like a nice gun, and a very nice "early" (may be even 1918, by some makers, though!) sled, but it may be either an albatross of sorts to fix, or an easy job.... good luck to the buyer! I'd love to see this go to someone who will keep us all up to date on it!

[IMBLITZVT]

That leaves me with the thought that this really is what the seller says it is, a 1950's dewat, in that the barrel is likely welded up, and the barrel has then been welded to the receiver under the feedblock, where you can't see it in any pictures, but can be very hard to fix, much more so than the 1919 Deactivation guns. Bob could speak more to that, but I've seen some of these 1950's guns that required some real skill to know how to fix.

That sounds about right as that the kind of dewat done to the MG08/15 I am getting from him.

[cobra]

You guys sure seem to love talking about something as simple as acquiring a MG. The best thing to do is call the sheriff in the town,you know which town because it,s on the GB web, tell him that you want the name of the person that has the guns,A WOMAN who,s husband probably died and she wants to sell the guns. Call the lady and make an appointment to look at the guns,be sure to bring CASH,$20.00 bills.Spread them out,starting at a low price and continue until her eyes bug. I would not talk to the red neck in charge. Tell the sheriff what problems you have had and I believe he will be happy to help the woman out. You drag this thing out much longer and you will find out that she has dumped them in the river like what happened last year in Ala.

[bbigbore]

That leaves me with the thought that this really is what the seller says it is, a 1950's dewat, in that the barrel is likely welded up, and the barrel has then been welded to the receiver under the feedblock, where you can't see it in any pictures, but can be very hard to fix, much more so than the 1919 Deactivation guns. Bob could speak more to that, but I've seen some of these 1950's guns that required some real skill to know how to fix.

That sounds about right as that the kind of dewat done to the MG08/15 I am getting from him.

Thats why as you said earlier it does matter who is selling the gun. If the person doesnt know how to spell the name of the thing he's selling/brokering thats a clue he probably doesnt know much else about the item. In this case it seems very true that after corresponding with the guy for 2 weeks he still cant tell me how it was dewated. When buying something unseen, that requires payment usually 3-4 months before you get to see it, is a risk that buyers are going to consider when it comes to how much they are willing to pay. I'll aslo ASSume the seller isnt too up on the paperwork which could lead to another nightmare...



I've handled a few estates with MGs, and I cant tell NFA owners often enough or loud enough - - document your guns. If you have a will prepare the form 5s today. Attach a note of who needs to sign date what in the time of your death. If nothing is going to pass on a form 5, prepare the form 4s with detailed documents so the broker knows what they are selling, and your family has an idea of what the times may be worth.

[IMBLITZVT]

You guys sure seem to love talking about something as simple as acquiring a MG. The best thing to do is call the sheriff in the town,...will find out that she has dumped them in the river like what happened last year in Ala.

Cobra Commander, is that the secret for getting everything for 1/10th its going rate?

Oprod, Yes you are correct... I did not warn you guys just to scare you away. The guy will tell you he does not know anything about MGs and he doesn't. Its a risky buy to say the least! Why might you ask have I been waiting since november to start my paperwork on the 08/15? Because the paperwork as not in order and he does not know how to do it either... Thats why I have a copy of the Form 5 for the MG08 and its up on GB! I am already part of this mess so I figure if I can get two guns for all the trouble it might be worth it!

Hey Glen is that you that bid it up to $9.5K?

[cobra]

If I start telling you guys how to not throw you money away then what will you do? It,s very simple,you will have to give up your computers and do something constructive. But,I don,t think that will happen. Yes,I don,t throw money away. Tomorrow I will fly down to Ackworth and see if the gun is really there. If the guy had two MG,s then he must have had other items for sale.

[IMBLITZVT]

If ... Tomorrow I will fly down to Ackworth and see if the gun is really there. If the guy had two MG,s then he must have had other items for sale.

Damn, you will probably get it for $500! Oh well, better start looking for another MG to buy! Do us a favor and take one picture of it with your hand on the trigger! Don't even bother posting without some pictures as proof.

[cobra]

Is that an order PRIVATE ? I don,t brag about every little piece of military that is acquired around the world. You have the same chance to get to Ackworth as any one else. We would look forward to seeing you. Bring cash,that is, if it is really there. I don,t think it is.

[Matt]

so what is the link or auction number of this hot topic?

[IMBLITZVT]

Is that an order PRIVATE ? I don,t brag about every little piece of military that is acquired around the world. You have the same chance to get to Ackworth as any one else. We would look forward to seeing you. Bring cash,that is, if it is really there. I don,t think it is.

Yes thats an order! We have heard lots of stories but never see pictures. Its time to step up or shut up. We have heard lots of stories now for a long time. We have never seen pictures! I am ready to see a picture that proves you made your way down to Ackworth. Come back without one and I will just disregard all future posts! I don't mean just any picture of the gun either... I want one showing that you were there. Your hand on the trigger, or with a picture of the paper or something! Its easy to talk, so I am calling you out!

[tomcatshaas]

Why is it that whenever there is a civil friendly conversation among friends is going on, That when Cobra Commander shows up it always goes down hill? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[IMBLITZVT]

Why is it that whenever there is a civil friendly conversation among friends is going on, That when Cobra Commander shows up it always goes down hill? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Nope no Civil unrest. Cobra Commander as claimed that he is flying down there today. All I am asking is he back up his claim with some proof! I figure its a good chance for him to show all of us that he is for real without doing anything more than what he has said he was going to do. Lets all that GI Joe does not get him on the way!

[dwmmg08]

Too late, I followed Cobra's advice and got it from the widow for $500 and 8 bags of Red man!

[IMBLITZVT]

Cobra, did you hack the site just so you did not have to post pictures? Ok tell us why you don't have them now that its back up!

[bbigbore]

the seller posted another picture. I'm still waiting for pics of the welding. In the new pic posted, it looks like the right grip is bent in a bit. Also, as mentioned earlier, that does look like a 08/15 booster. I thought the threads on the 08 and 08/15 jackets were different and the boosters weren't interchangeable?