Advice on MG fakes/repro accessories.

[MarkFinneran]

There has been some discussions on the quality of repros and more importantly the desire by some to pass off a fake or repro as an original. I have an example of a MG08 front armour shield, the one that fits over the foresight. The metal is solid, certainly looks a period piece in terms of wear and tear but actually has a stamp on it. It is not the stamps shown on Dolf's book but 3 inter-linked circles, like the Olympic symbol.
Is anyone aware of this potential German manufacture or inspector mark? Or has a repro manufacturer had the decency to place their own symbol on it. I can post a photo if of interest.

In a similar vein is anyone aware of a definitive guide showing the makers/factorys of the 08 and 08/15, and in particular showing the markings/stamps?

Huge thanks.

Mark

[lugercarbine]

Sounds like the Krupp steel mark - three interlocking circles

[MarkFinneran]

lugercarbine TY for the reply. Your reply is reassurring
I looked up Krupp and indeed you are right. The web site described it as 3 circles 'ontop' of each other, not interlinked as I thought. It has been their symbol since the late 1880's.
So my item is genuine so that is good news.
Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

Does it have a cut out for the front sight screw?

Its gets to the point on some of this stuff that its impossible to tell...

[MarkFinneran]

I can only post pictures after setting up a web site so images to follow. However it does not have the screw recess and will only fit after removing foresight screw, placing over the foresight the replacing the screw. Are you Matt about to dash my hopes after the 'Krupp' good news?
Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

Mark,

I can not say for sure... but you know the Germans. They would not have missed this detail... I don't think. How did you get it? That will also tell a lot.

I have some IMA repro front armor and after I put the front sight screw slot in, who can tell...

In the end its just a chuck of steel! Very hard to tell.

Matt

[MarkFinneran]

Matt thanks it came from a reliable chap in the USA. Surely IMA do not stamp items, but then after they sale things who could say. I will get the image up asap. I hope it is original but now I have that horrible seed of doubt. Can you show the IMA armour versions - is that allowed?
Mark

[MarkFinneran]

I hope I have followed Salt6 instructions because I am a computer pygmy.
Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

Here is a picture from IMA. The easy way to tell its a repro is that it does not fit! I had to do a fair amount of grinding to get mine to fit. I would give it at least a 50/50 but I don't know how to tell for sure. Even the known original ones are different...

[MarkFinneran]

Here is another image of one of his other armoured shields, along with unknown maker stamp.

[IMBLITZVT]

See that one has the cut out for the front sight screw. But even then I have seen one with this and the guy said it was a repro. Without getting my hands on a few originals its just hard for me to say.

[MarkFinneran]

Matt thanks for taking the time to assist. I guess when we all start we all make mistakes and learn through trial and error. I think I must have been 'blinded' by the fact that it had a stamp and missed the obvious like the screw 'groove'.

Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

Well the stamp is a good plus... who knows maybe some did not have the screw hole... I really could not tell you. Those things are just to easy to repro. You can probably tell more by fit. Does it fit on like a glove? If so it probably is German. If not is probably repro...

[amafrank]

Hi Mark,
Been a while since we talked much....I see you're still an addict like the rest of us.

I've found that the desire for accurately made parts for these old guns has been increasing and stuff that works but looks wrong is no longer good enough for most collector/shooters. Because of that and the increasing use of CNC machinery (and its decrease in cost) it has been possible in many cases to nearly duplicate a lot of the original parts to the point that you cannot tell them apart. On some stuff like the cast and cheap wrought pieces that IMA is having done in india there is no real desire to duplicate but rather they want display stuff. Its frequently possible to determine its originality by simply trying the part on an original gun. The belt drums for the 08/15 are a perfect example. They look nearly perfect but try fitting an 8mm round in one. Its just a tad too short front to rear and the pins which should hold the belt tab are not spaced properly. The do look good though. The markings on the drum look exactly like one of the drums I have which I know is original so the copiers are copying everything because they don't know which is important and which is not. I'd have to say that markings are not a good way of determining the originality conclusively. Another case involves myself and the 08/15 boosters I made. I wanted them to be perfect and I got a set of stamps from a friend to make the MG 08/15 markings on the booster flats. They were pretty much exact. I had a gent who refused to believe that the booster on the gun he was selling was a repro. I told him to unscrew the parts and see if there were any markings of HMF in an oval or FHM on any of the parts. He did that and found that the marks were there. I told him that HMF was Hatten Machinen Fabrik which is of course my own name and that FHM was an earlier version of the same mark. I marked them specifically to make sure that they could be confused with originals but could also be proven as repros. The intent is not to decieve but to insure the proper original look. The hard part is that the sellers of the parts don't always know what is what and if its marked it must be proper. I think your best bet is to do what Matt suggested and see if the armor fits a real gun. IMA's stuff has a habit of not fitting properly so its a good indication of repro. After that its hard to say for sure......
Hope that helps
Frank

[MarkFinneran]

Frank - absolutely great to hear from you - yes still trying to recover the collections after the 'first wives best efforts. Your words, like Matts are encouraging and offer hope. My British WWI vickers collection has been sold/dispersed sadly to feed the hungry evil wolf like lawyers! but now I am concentrating on WWI German as a change of direction. TY for the advice and other 'pointers' and I commend you on your efforts to mark pieces. My alleged fake item has these 3 circles but actually fits perfectly on 4 different MG08s so I am hopeful it is good. The only bad thing is those 4 MG08s are not mine
There is also an MG08 armour cover for the water jacket that also fits like a glove, also marked with the 3 circles. i will post this image shortly for comment.
Mark

[MarkFinneran]

This was bought the same time as the front armoured shield. It fitted perfectly and is very well made. The 3 ''Krupp'' circles are present but again my aim is to prove authenticity.

[MarkFinneran]

main body view and again fits as it should. 3 circles on the 'facing' side. Does this look like an IMA repro Matt?
Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

Well I think an IMA one could be made to look like it. I need a close up picture of the front of the shield where it connects to the jacket cover. Oh and is there any attaching hardware? That is the biggest tell tale of them all. IMA attaching metal straps are way off.

[Blanksguy]

Another "tell" is the rivets.......remember, these are suppose to be WWI MG-08 Water-Jacket-Armour.....rivets have "heads" on both ends. Look into Dolf'-Goldsmith's book "The Devils Paintbrush".....the "period-photos" of captured WWI German equipment and of the MG-08 set up with Water-Jacket Armour.......very good photos.

Another "tell" (as I was told by an old collector" is that if you hold these pieces up on a short piece of light-weight-cord.....and lightly strike them with a hammer on the edge.....they will ring/sound-off like a bell/tuning-fork.

I use to collect MG-08s.....and have owned several along with 5-6 sled-mounts over the past 20(+)years.
Years ago, IMA imported into the USA (throught "Fire-Power Int., LTD in England) a lot of WWI equipment that was given as "aid" to Turkey during WWI. The "Turks" didn't like the "sled-mount"....but several Driefus-16s (Tripods) were imported along with the MG-08 Parts-Kits.
Many accessories, spare-locks, barrels, aluminum-belts, and many different accessories came in with these guns.....many parts were available. Cartridge-case-tongs, other tools, and belt-loading machine came also.....along with many ZF12 Optics and equipment for aiming the guns for indirect-fire.

The four-piece armour set for the MG-08 was always very hard to find.....with only 1-2 of the larger "origianl" "outter-shields" being brought into the US by collectors....mostly from "digs" and from European-Museums. To help the collector-market, IMA had the 2-pcs. Water-Jacket-Armour reproduced along with the sled "inner-armour" (which wasn't made even near an "original"....but cut-corners on the outter-shield, making a smaller version of the 70lb.+ monster.
At this point, Rick Keller (of Great-War-Militaria in Chambersberb, PA)......had some correct inner and outter shields reproduced. The outter-shields even had the "doors" reproduced for them.
The "tells" on the inner-shields are the brackets, and locking "T" that holds the bracket onto the sled.

With good/close photos of what you may be looking at purchasing.......I may be able to tell you if it is reproduction or original. Just remember the first "impression" when looking at something that is suppose to be original.....if you "suspect" it, or have a "feeling" that something doesn't look correct.....or too "new-ish" looking......you are probably right.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
PS: Anyone seen the newly-reproduced MG34 and MG42 spring-containers being sold from IMA (Thank you Christian....next we need MGZ-40 Collimators).........makes ya' wonder how/where all those "new-looking" spring-tubes showed up a few years ago being told "they were from old WWII German stock-piles held in Russia.............(??????????????).....and still being sold on E-Bay/GunBroker as "original".

[MarkFinneran]

Richard - huge thanks. Much appreciated. I will send photos to your address if ok. There were 1 set of fastening 'brackets with it so shall send images of those. Great help.
Mark