The future of Kits, Barrels and Receivers?

fxo · Post by **fxo** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:45 am

The machinery isn't the problem. Progressive stamping dies are. For a realistic idea of what it takes, look at Pages 154-155 of Folke Myrvang's "MG34-MG42 German Universal Machineguns", for the steps it takes to mfg an MG42 receiver. I count 16 steps not including the basic piece of sheet metal cut on a blanking press, and the welding/grinding of the bridge at the rear of the receiver.
For the most part, each individual step takes a separate stamping die. Figure $100/hour for a die designer to design each die. With CAD, you're looking at 12 hours for the first die, then a slightly reduced time for each other die.
Look at the size of the receiver. Each die would be approximately 6" wide. 6" tall and 40" long. Figure approximately $125 for the metal stock for each half of each die. Then figure in machine time to mill out the die $65/hour. And, $65/hour for the tool/die maker to hand-hone, fine shape the inside of each die.
Then, you need to find stamping company willing to take on the project, $65/hour shop time, for each stamp press, if you can even find a place willing to mfg a firearm receiver. Figure at least 3 machines to do it, with several die changes for each one. Down time in between die set-up, retooling etc.
Figure one minute per machine, per operation, per part.
Take your own gestimate of the above and double it.
Close to $100k?

I did some investigating for having the sheet metal handguard for the MP44 made for my semi. It would turn out to be a $1800 weapon, of which $800 is for the handguard. Nuts!
fxo

Eugene Tackleberry · Post by **Eugene Tackleberry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:23 am

fxo wrote:The machinery isn't the problem. Progressive stamping dies are. For a realistic idea of what it takes, look at Pages 154-155 of Folke Myrvang's "MG34-MG42 German Universal Machineguns", for the steps it takes to mfg an MG42 receiver. I count 16 steps not including the basic piece of sheet metal cut on a blanking press, and the welding/grinding of the bridge at the rear of the receiver.
For the most part, each individual step takes a separate stamping die. Figure $100/hour for a die designer to design each die. With CAD, you're looking at 12 hours for the first die, then a slightly reduced time for each other die.
Look at the size of the receiver. Each die would be approximately 6" wide. 6" tall and 40" long. Figure approximately $125 for the metal stock for each half of each die. Then figure in machine time to mill out the die $65/hour. And, $65/hour for the tool/die maker to hand-hone, fine shape the inside of each die.
Then, you need to find stamping company willing to take on the project, $65/hour shop time, for each stamp press, if you can even find a place willing to mfg a firearm receiver. Figure at least 3 machines to do it, with several die changes for each one. Down time in between die set-up, retooling etc.
Figure one minute per machine, per operation, per part.
Take your own gestimate of the above and double it.
Close to $100k?

I did some investigating for having the sheet metal handguard for the MP44 made for my semi. It would turn out to be a $1800 weapon, of which $800 is for the handguard. Nuts!
fxo

Lets assume for a moment that you've got the different stampings needed, whats the size of the hydraulic press would you need? (i.e. how much PSI is required to form the metal? )

Believe it or not, getting the $$ for this wouldn't be the main problem, you could get a business loan to do this and you could easily make that money back by making brand spanking new semi-auto receivers. The biggest problem as you've pointed out would be finding a machinist competent enough to make the dies. Got any ideas on who could do it?

ETA: Also, was the Welding and grinding on the bridge done by automation of manually?

Post by **Bullwinkle** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:34 am

BRP has already done ALL this and spent the $$$ for the dies...seems like it would be cheaper all the way around to just stimulate ENOUGH interest (aka GROUP BUY) to get BRP to make another run...I'm sure if someone went to him and paid him upfront $500 (just a guess) each for 100 receivers or more it would be in his best interest to crank them out...

I guess my point is, why try and reproduce a product that already exsist?? You'll spend MORE tooling up then you will save unless you move a few thousand receivers. If it's about the $$, then I would think a prepaid commitment on a LARGE order would acheive enough of a price break for everyone to be happy...BRP makes $$$ and the customers would save $$$$...MONEY is a PRIME motivator in all businesses large or small...

just my .02cents worth.

Eugene Tackleberry · Post by **Eugene Tackleberry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:26 am

Bullwinkle wrote:BRP has already done ALL this and spent the $$$ for the dies...seems like it would be cheaper all the way around to just stimulate ENOUGH interest (aka GROUP BUY) to get BRP to make another run...I'm sure if someone went to him and paid him upfront $500 (just a guess) each for 100 receivers or more it would be in his best interest to crank them out...

I guess my point is, why try and reproduce a product that already exsist?? You'll spend MORE tooling up then you will save unless you move a few thousand receivers. If it's about the $$, then I would think a prepaid commitment on a LARGE order would acheive enough of a price break for everyone to be happy...BRP makes $$$ and the customers would save $$$$...MONEY is a PRIME motivator in all businesses large or small...

just my .02cents worth.

I tried giving BRP a call a minuet ago to get a date on when he might make some more but the shop is closed today.

I know there have been several threads wanting a group BRP buy but has anyone else contacted the company about doing so?

Cpt_Kirks · Post by **Cpt_Kirks** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:45 am

The last word I've heard of from Brian at BRP was that the last receiver group buy cleared out all their excess receivers. All current receiver production is allocated to complete guns.

Initially, BRP stated they would no longer sell receivers to the public. However, since the reaction to the group buy was kinda crazy, they are considering selling more receivers in October, or maybe early next year.

I got all of the above information second (or third) hand, so take it with a grain of salt.

Eugene Tackleberry · Post by **Eugene Tackleberry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:15 pm

Cpt_Kirks wrote:The last word I've heard of from Brian at BRP was that the last receiver group buy cleared out all their excess receivers. All current receiver production is allocated to complete guns.

Initially, BRP stated they would no longer sell receivers to the public. However, since the reaction to the group buy was kinda crazy, they are considering selling more receivers in October, or maybe early next year.

I got all of the above information second (or third) hand, so take it with a grain of salt.

Ok, so although we may not be able to get the receivers anytime soon they do plan on making more semi-auto right? I would call to have these questions answered but as I posted earlier they're closed today and your my only source of info (albeit second or third hand info

).

Post by **Bullwinkle** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:33 pm

IF...someone could get a FIRM head count on how many folks would buy a receiver then approach Brian with REAL HARD numbers, I'll bet if the demand is great enough he'd do another run soonier as opposed to later...IF there is enough demand

Eugene Tackleberry · Post by **Eugene Tackleberry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:15 pm

Bullwinkle wrote:IF...someone could get a FIRM head count on how many folks would buy a receiver then approach Brian with REAL HARD numbers, I'll bet if the demand is great enough he'd do another run soonier as opposed to later...IF there is enough demand

Where do I sign up?

thekillerman · Post by **thekillerman** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:02 am

Count me in too!

Post by **Blanksguy** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:13 pm

Before you approch BRP-Corp. (Brian) about a firm number of 80% SA42 receivers to be made.......ask him to post a set of "Photos" of his new "B" series SA42 receivers from all sides...........this is what you will be receiving....not the earlier "A" series.
Brian is also making quite a few replacement parts such as rivets and such.....look over on the BRP Web-Page.
Also ask if they are one-piece as the originals were......or if they are pieced together from 4-pieces as the "A" series SA42 was.....and maybe insure of the type welding used (TIG) if you would like an answer. I am pretty sure that as an MG42 Board.....Brian has been over here a few times. You might also want to address other projects and/or needed parts to be made to him.........he may listen?

I believe that you would want to know what you would be buying "before" they are made and you spend your hard-earned cash....correct?

Their may also be other options such as military dull-black finish....or gray?.....engraving of basic and/or optional engraved serial-number information?

Last....just to keep your "Costs" down......I would suggest that you do not "buy-into" a Weaponeer Group Buy......keep the money here and use a reputable person from "this" board to do the nogotiations and set the prices for what you want. It will keep your cost down.....unless you just want to give your $$$ to someone? ...and I know that the next "thread/e-mail" that I will receive will be from one of their people saying..."but we have larger numbers....and can sell more...so our price will be lower"....."wrong", if the numbers are there, the prices would already be lower, and those people interested in this "group-buy" can come over here and deal with "our-buyer". KEEP THE MONEY HERE IN OUR GROUP !!!
"Our-man" can post on 1919A4 Boards...and the "Sturm.Board letting people know of our "Group-Buy"......again, keep the money here and your cost will be lower.

Be safe, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

deeredoctor · Post by **deeredoctor** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:41 pm

I don't know much about the history of German guns. So I was wondering what happened to all the equiptment used to manufacture the MG42. You would think there would be a couple factories involved in producing them. Since these recievers have dried up, wouldn't another option be maybe tracking down some of the original eqiptment. Probably laws against importing such equiptment. Just an idea.

Deeredoc

Post by **Blanksguy** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:01 pm

The original equipment was either "Bombed" out/destroyed by US Bombers during WWII....or was used in Germany to make up the MG3 receivers. A lot of "stamping" equipment/machinery was confiscated by the Russians and shipped back to Russia........maybe later converted to make whatever they needed/wanted.
Heck.....maybe the Germans even sold their old machinery to Turkey or any of the other countries producing the MG3 M53 series of machineguns.

BRP-Corp can make up more receiver 1/4 sections.....and/or 1/2 receivers.....or even 80% and 100% SA42 receivers. They just have to be talked into doing it for us.

Other than that.....unless you have an extra $100,000 laying around for making the "dies".........looks like we a going to have to use DEMILed receivers. I have two for sale down in the FS section.

Be safe, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Post by **weasel** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:14 pm

These firearms are still made today in many countrys. Licensed production of the MG-3 are: Greece, Iran, Italy, Pakistan, Spain, and Turkey. Austria as the MG74, Yugoslavia SARAC M53, and of coarse, Germany's MG-3. Many other countrys use the MG-3 as their LMG.
It would be nice to be able to get 80% type of receiver from over the pond, but the folks at the club would see it as a bad idea. They want to stop the building not help it.
Have fun
Weasel

arcetek · Post by **arcetek** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:43 pm

If BRP could be talked into another 80% G.B. like or near the Weaponeer price I would order two. Hope other people will chime in to make it a profitable deal they won't want to refuse. Thanks!

Post by **Blanksguy** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:02 pm

Just remember.....if you have someone (a member from this Board and not a "Weaponeer-Group-Buy") gather up the information.......and then address this possible bulk sale to Brian over at BRP-Corp.......your price will be cheaper.

If you decide to go with "Weaponeer" running the buy?......just deduct a couple of dollars from the normal "retail" price for each.........you will never know what they really cost in bulk unless you ask "Brian" for the possiblities of a "Group-Buy" made from this web-page.

Last....when you talk with "Brian"....ask that he post photos of the Model "B" SA 42 receivers that will be bought.....unless you would like to present him with other questions such as:
1: Optional engraving?
2: Optional "finishes" such as military blank or gray...or "Blued".
3: If they are made from one piece as the "originals" were?
4: If 1/2 receivers...or just front pieces....or even 1/4 receivers can be purchased as it is just a matter setting these aside during manufacture......these are not an assembly line item.....they run out so many, then change dies in a small shop. "Options"?
(Note: you could run this thing through a member....have him gather up approximate numbers/types/options....and then address it to Brian......then when options/prices come back,,,,do it on a pre-paid deal where members have 60 or 90 days before the order goes in to BRP-Corp.)....just suggestions.

Be safe...RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Post by **rhw1225** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:22 pm

I'd be interested in one if a group buy could be arranged with BRP. Depending on the price, I might be up for two.

Making another run of recievers isn't a cheap proposition. It'll may take quite a few seriously committed orders to make it worth their while to do.

Robert

Karbinator · Post by **Karbinator** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:47 pm

Blanksguy wrote:......................If you decide to go with "Weaponeer" running the buy?......just deduct a couple of dollars from the normal "retail" price for each.........

Is this a Fact you're stating ??

Post by **Blanksguy** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:00 pm

rhw1225,
It may take some serious dedication to put on an order of this nature.......and some commitment from the person wanting to make contact with Brian for our Board/Group (Not $$$....just a lot of time an effort).

Making a "run" of partial...or even 80% SA42 receivers would be cheaper for them now......it was expensive when BRP Corp. was making up the dies for stamping the steel. Now that the dies are made?.........less costs (other than their "over-head" and paying off the loan for making the dies, etc.). They call that "business".

On a group-buy run by this web-page vs. a "Weaponeer-Group-Buy"....have you ever called a company and asked "How many of______would I need to buy to get a bulk rate or lower price?....and what would my costs be then?". I did this with a couple of suppliers/vendors over the years on different products................I was/and still am getting cheaper prices than "Weaponner's" group-buys.
Did you ever watch any person go out and buy 10 of ______, then sort through them for the ones that he wanted and sell the left-overs?

But that's just my $.02 worth.......trying to keep the $$$$ here in our group...instead of giving it away......RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

PS: If you doubt this......Look at PPsh-41 magazines selling at $8-10 each (plus shipping) if you buy 10 from the vendors.......What would be the price if you bought 50-100? ....200?......and how much profit would you have left over selling them at $8 each? (plus shipping). This goes for all of the "Parts-Kits"..."Work"...just about anything sold over the internet in the weapons parts and accessories area of "surplus".
SAVE YOUR MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Post by **Blanksguy** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:19 pm

Karbinator,
(I can't find an edit key to add a reply...so...)

I can say "NOT A FACT/"Comment-only".........as I do not have their financial-receipts displayed in front of me nor will I ask for them"........but if you look at current sale prices for most of what is being sold in the "surplus" Parts-Business I believe that you can get the picture.
Basic-Business: .....if someone is selling something retail from bulk at $______and will lower their price to $_____ if you by in bulk.......how much can they come down? What is "mark-up" on these products?....vs.....Bulk-Sales at Group-discounts? I believe that you can see a pattern here. "As an example only": If a parts-kit is selling at $750 someplace.........and X________r is having a Group-Buy at $725.........are the "buyers in the "Group" saving anything?......or is it just the appearance of saving?

With that said......and I already know that I will hear "but they are running a service for everyone"...........
We have the ability to run our own "Group-Buy" here with our Group-Members........and be assured of the lowest group prices as long as we are using a reputable member of the Board......

Just my $.02 worth, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
PS: I type slow at my age.

lmsc07ct · Post by **lmsc07ct** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

helix60 wrote:I recently Emailed BRP about their 42 recievers. The stated that they will not be makeing any until October. I was looking for reciever sections not the whole thing. They did sort of mention that sections will be available.

Regards,
Heli

OK, It's October. Any word, or is anyone else tooling up for receiver sections?