Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
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Note, the Trunnion on the type 1 is about 1 inch further forward than that of the type 98. overall both guns function very well, how ever, the beauty of the type 1 in in its roughness. For a gun produced under worsening conditions in 1945, it still functions as well as any type 98, or mg-15 I have seen.
The video I took of this gun is of it in a crude duel mount with the type 98. Much work is needed to fully perfect the design, and I am now thinking that a complete redesigning of the mount is necessary. Therefore, I am embarrassed to post it.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Just received an email from a friend and fellow Japanese machine gun collector. Take a look at what he has to say about the photograph that is on pg. 3 of this forum(the gun that was once thought to have an odd Bakelite rear). It appears that it has a marking painted on the Bakelite. No idea what it is, but I think we should as a Japanese speaker if it is a Japanese character. For some, this may prove to add confusion to the situation of Japanese Bakelite rears showing up in the Pacific Theater. For others, maybe this either confirms or denies the notion of a Japanese use of phenolic resin parts on their weapons( aside from the type 94 pistol, rifle muzzle covers, and fuse covers for the type 89 "knee motar" rounds). For lack of ability to sum up the email effectively, i simply pasted it below. Take a look:
(( Back on Oct 27, you sent me a PDF file called MG15.PDF. That file contained an image of what is purported to be a Type 98 with a bakelite cover.
Now the PDF is not too clear, but my latest book acquisition contains that image as well and also some information that might be interesting if we connect the dots to some other images of IJ weapons in that book. Bear with me as I try to lay this out. I broke out the magnifier and scanner for this one.
What you can't really see in the PDF image is the scale bar included in the shot. This bar references a two inch scale and one inch scale bar. There's three paper labels on it. The top most piece of paper bears the characters "CEE9718"; CEE is recognized as an abbreviation for "Captured Enemy Equipment". Ok so it was captured, but who's was it?
Now that scale bar is a little unusual; usually you'll see a yardstick or ruler positioned next to the piece, but this one is a little different. That same scale bar is seen in an image (from the same page in the book) showing a Japanese Lewis gun set up for flex gun use (very common Japanese configuration). You can see the same two pieces of paper on the lower half of the scale bar. There's also another piece of paper with the number "8367" (likely a catalog CEE number).
I have scanned both the above images at very high dpi (2400 dpi and too big to send) and can't make out the writing, BUT it is the same writing on the left most piece of paper which is on the lower half of the scale bar. Ok, we now have two MGs now with CEE numbers using the same scale bar. I think I could extrapolate that both weapons were cataloged at about the same time from a group of CEE in/from the same theater of operation.
For reference, there is another shot of a uniquely Japanese MG (the Type 91 tank gun which is derived from the Type 11 MG). That has a different scale bar, but bears a CEE number of 10339 ("CEE10339"). I think what we may have is some team who is cataloging a large batch of CEE and is doing it sequentially even though the scale bar on the Type 91 is different. I would think it might be unusual (though maybe not) for them to be simultaneously catalog a mix of PTO and ETO equipment. Big problem is I don't know where the master catalog of CEE is.
Check out these images when you get a chance. ))
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(( Back on Oct 27, you sent me a PDF file called MG15.PDF. That file contained an image of what is purported to be a Type 98 with a bakelite cover.
Now the PDF is not too clear, but my latest book acquisition contains that image as well and also some information that might be interesting if we connect the dots to some other images of IJ weapons in that book. Bear with me as I try to lay this out. I broke out the magnifier and scanner for this one.
What you can't really see in the PDF image is the scale bar included in the shot. This bar references a two inch scale and one inch scale bar. There's three paper labels on it. The top most piece of paper bears the characters "CEE9718"; CEE is recognized as an abbreviation for "Captured Enemy Equipment". Ok so it was captured, but who's was it?
Now that scale bar is a little unusual; usually you'll see a yardstick or ruler positioned next to the piece, but this one is a little different. That same scale bar is seen in an image (from the same page in the book) showing a Japanese Lewis gun set up for flex gun use (very common Japanese configuration). You can see the same two pieces of paper on the lower half of the scale bar. There's also another piece of paper with the number "8367" (likely a catalog CEE number).
I have scanned both the above images at very high dpi (2400 dpi and too big to send) and can't make out the writing, BUT it is the same writing on the left most piece of paper which is on the lower half of the scale bar. Ok, we now have two MGs now with CEE numbers using the same scale bar. I think I could extrapolate that both weapons were cataloged at about the same time from a group of CEE in/from the same theater of operation.
For reference, there is another shot of a uniquely Japanese MG (the Type 91 tank gun which is derived from the Type 11 MG). That has a different scale bar, but bears a CEE number of 10339 ("CEE10339"). I think what we may have is some team who is cataloging a large batch of CEE and is doing it sequentially even though the scale bar on the Type 91 is different. I would think it might be unusual (though maybe not) for them to be simultaneously catalog a mix of PTO and ETO equipment. Big problem is I don't know where the master catalog of CEE is.
Check out these images when you get a chance. ))
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Here is the video of my first attempt to create a dual mount for my type 1 and type 98:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNI9Q69f ... e=youtu.be[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNI9Q69f ... e=youtu.be[/video]
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
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this is a picture I bought off ebay a few days ago! It just goes to show that there are more photos out there of the type 98 than I once imagined. I hadn't seen this one before.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Oh, my, my, my.......Seth...we need to talk. At length. And then some. ;-) ;-)sbl11 wrote:Here is the video of my first attempt to create a dual mount for my type 1 and type 98:
-TomH (who simultaneously advises to never try and shoot an MG81Z from the hip)
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Well, the Scarf-ring mount and the compensating wind vane sights are straight commercial pre-War stuff, not AT ALL similar to the later, much simpler and more effective wartime 'Drehkranz Dr.15/30' design.sbl11 wrote: this is a picture I bought off ebay a few days ago! It just goes to show that there are more photos out there of the type 98 than I once imagined. I hadn't seen this one before. -seth
This is pure commercial stuff here, pre-1940, and never used by the Luftwaffe. It is almost a complete clone of similar UK + USA designs, actual 'Scarf design' mounts, by Mr. Scarf's company. Probably actually licensed production out of the UK at the time. Lots of similarity to the later Lewis gun scarf rings and the early USA Colt MG-38/40 observer station mounts. Never seen an MG-15 adapted to a Scarf ring before....neat...and complex and heavy.
Japan bought a LOT of stuff in the late 30's...... ;-)
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
I asked Shigeo Sugawa to take a look at the photo. He seemed quite impressed and wanted a copy. He also translated the text at the bottom:
-sethSeth,
It says , Over the sky of the border, India and Biruma, the Army Airforces escorting the ground forces which
heading India. There are no enemy agaist our forces.
I try to read the dates, one says July of 1942 but this is the date that Yomiuri got the licence to sell this kind of
printed matters. The photo should be sold in 1944.
Sincerely,
Shigeo Sugawa
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
And can we agree that this is the same style scarf mount in a similar style aircraft?This is pure commercial stuff here, pre-1940, and never used by the Luftwaffe. It is almost a complete clone of similar UK + USA designs, actual 'Scarf design' mounts, by Mr. Scarf's company. Probably actually licensed production out of the UK at the time. Lots of similarity to the later Lewis gun scarf rings and the early USA Colt MG-38/40 observer station mounts. Never seen an MG-15 adapted to a Scarf ring before....neat...and complex and heavy.
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And that this mounting bracket is unlike any german mount seen before, and identical to thos still installed in the Japanese "nick"?
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Looks to me that we have a archival photograph of a Japanese used mg-15.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Oh yeah, Seth, I've always believed they had imported some certain quantities of actual MG15 long before any indigenous production of Type 1/Type 98 guns was ever attempted. For one, it seems almost all Type 1/Type 98 production took place well into the second half of the War, and there certainly exist historical photos, like the one directly above, that show "MG15" guns in Jap service.....not much to argue there. The only question is more like "how many MG15" and "how did and when did they get there?".
There were CERTAINLY a significant amount of foreign (i.e., external to Germany) sales of MG15 guns from purely commercial sources prior to mid-1939.......Heinrich Krieghoff, and Rheinmettal-Borsig AG also, were both selling MG15 (and others) commercially prior to mid-1939. Japan probably was easily able to buy MG15 openly prior to late 1939.....and by then even, the MG15 was well recognized as virtually obsolescent, production only continuing to either supplement the newer MG81 + MG 131 then coming into widespread distribution.
-TomH
There were CERTAINLY a significant amount of foreign (i.e., external to Germany) sales of MG15 guns from purely commercial sources prior to mid-1939.......Heinrich Krieghoff, and Rheinmettal-Borsig AG also, were both selling MG15 (and others) commercially prior to mid-1939. Japan probably was easily able to buy MG15 openly prior to late 1939.....and by then even, the MG15 was well recognized as virtually obsolescent, production only continuing to either supplement the newer MG81 + MG 131 then coming into widespread distribution.
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
One thing that doesn't make sense still is the reason someone would have written type 98 in that picture of that Japanese used "mg-15". Did they have some inside knowledge on it actually having been a type 98 from a Japanese "nick" or was it improperly tagged as a type 98 based off the fact that it came from a Japanese plane as a German gun used under Japanese authority? We probably will not know, but it does however "fit the description" of a wartime technical report photograph. It, like those photos above it, appear to have been photographed next to a white background and measuring stick. CEE was recorded as it was captured, and thus during the war. And, while still an assumption albeit, this does now show too suspect Japanese used "mg-15's" with Bakelite from the PTO.
Still looking for earlier evidence on mg-15's arriving in Japan. A lot is to be learned, especially why the designation of type 98(for 1938)was decided upon when the earliest type 98 observed in from 1942. And, as a reminder, 1942 happens to be the same time frame as to when the suspect 57 mg-15's were to have been sent to Japan from Germany.
-seth
Still looking for earlier evidence on mg-15's arriving in Japan. A lot is to be learned, especially why the designation of type 98(for 1938)was decided upon when the earliest type 98 observed in from 1942. And, as a reminder, 1942 happens to be the same time frame as to when the suspect 57 mg-15's were to have been sent to Japan from Germany.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Bil Says:
Compliments of Wikipedia, the world's renowned source for truth..haha:
The "simplest" of all these media happens to be a single photograph that clearly states that a gun is indeed a Japanese type 98. Furthermore, the mount attached to that gun also identifies it as having been Japanese issued. This detail has clearly been overlooked, as well as many details brought to this discussion in favor of a hypothesis that has no backing. There is no publication that has any evidence that shoots down any information I have conveyed through my research on this issue.
So then in regards to the "simplest hypothesis" I believe that assuming a gun, clearly marked and mounted as one thing, and instead called another by our friend here, to be a stark disobedience to the "law of parsimony"
In this situation the simplest answer is the one that agrees with what was recorded in the photo. And, my experience in test taking also leads me to shy away from a "definite" answer. (ie. one that is all inclusive and uses the terms "always", "every", and "never", because many times there are exceptions to the rule) That is why I cringe when I hear someone say that "all" type 98's had wooden covers.
All- agree to disagree, but do it not out of spite for another person, but because your hard earned research says otherwise.
Thanks for the fun!
-seth
With no intention of hostility, Bil, I just want to call you out on this previous statement.IMBLITZVT-your theory is called 'Ocams Razor",I believe.
Compliments of Wikipedia, the world's renowned source for truth..haha:
Your statement assumes that the two theories are equally backed with evidence, and that one has no more weight than the other. While I am biased, I would venture to say that there has been sufficient evidence to make the "simplest hypothesis" my own....haha. But in all seriousness, I mean to say that the information I brought to this discussion covered a wide variety of media including historical documentation, manuals, and photographs that suggest a Japanese use of phenol resins material in weapons manufacture, and importation of such material from the weapon's nation of origin for outright use in the Japanese military.Occam's razor, also known as Ockham's razor, and sometimes expressed in Latin as lex parsimoniae (the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness), is a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false.
The "simplest" of all these media happens to be a single photograph that clearly states that a gun is indeed a Japanese type 98. Furthermore, the mount attached to that gun also identifies it as having been Japanese issued. This detail has clearly been overlooked, as well as many details brought to this discussion in favor of a hypothesis that has no backing. There is no publication that has any evidence that shoots down any information I have conveyed through my research on this issue.
So then in regards to the "simplest hypothesis" I believe that assuming a gun, clearly marked and mounted as one thing, and instead called another by our friend here, to be a stark disobedience to the "law of parsimony"
In this situation the simplest answer is the one that agrees with what was recorded in the photo. And, my experience in test taking also leads me to shy away from a "definite" answer. (ie. one that is all inclusive and uses the terms "always", "every", and "never", because many times there are exceptions to the rule) That is why I cringe when I hear someone say that "all" type 98's had wooden covers.
All- agree to disagree, but do it not out of spite for another person, but because your hard earned research says otherwise.
Thanks for the fun!
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
I would stand by my statement-first,I was just putting a name to anothers theory,and the name is still the same. Second, if you read the last half of the final sentence,you will see that your point has been made! Thanks for all the new info,and the input of yourself and others. We now know a lot more than when we started,and that's what it's all about. That and guns,of course! ---bil
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Hey, like I said...It's all about having fun! I'm sure more will continue to turn up, and I am always a go for good criticism if it is of a knowledgeable background. Most of the criticism is here anyways. I will most likely use this forum as more of a data dump of all the info I find. That way, I can go back and reference it, but also so others can too. In the end, I might have been grossly wrong, and may ask you or another moderator to delete all my posts, but I think as of now, I am still on the right track.
-seth
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
I am amazed that approaching 20 pages now in this thread.........someone has not yet managed to invoke Godwin's Law. ;-)sbl11 wrote:I will most likely use this forum as more of a data dump of all the info I find.
-seth
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Here you go Tom! Mein Kampf is one that may take way more than 20 pages! It may last 1,000 years! Hopefully by that time I will have brain washed/expelled any ideals unlike my own in uncovering the truth! It may take many more hours, and a lot larger of a force, but eventually I will successfully have created a place where all Japanese machine gun enthusiasts can post peacefully, a Lebensraum. Of course I feel that the Japanese crowd is of a higher order, so I am working hard to segregate these Japanese forums within a much more worthy title, one that does not have to share equal space with the lesser of the two groups. Plus those in cahoots with the mg08 side represent a Lebensunwertes Leben and unworthy of the space given to them within das Reich of mg42.us.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Ich wusste nicht euch geboten, die deutsches sprache so gut sowieso! Vielleicht, müssen wir all dies in einer weise.......fortsetzen? Wie bei Godwin's Law....so aufgerufen sie kennen die diskussion jetzt beendet ist? ;-)sbl11 wrote:Here you go Tom!
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Until more evidence arises...
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Found this on ebay and had to have it. It is an original sight for the type 98 and the type 1(type 100 dual) as seen previously in this thread. Page 10 shows the schematic, the potos of the type 98 in the Helen bober nose show it installed. Now if I could only find the norman wind vane sight to go with it
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
You bastage!! I am -SO- jealous........
Send it to me, I will make sure you don't lose it. ;-)
-TomH
Send it to me, I will make sure you don't lose it. ;-)
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.