Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

I guess i forgot to post this:



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a chunk of bakelite is missing from this type...i mean...mg15's underside next to the safety ring. I imagine it was important to have it secured by the pistol grip latch for just such a reason. This is number two with a broken rear.

[TactAdv]

Notice our friend in the khakis appears again!

I don' think the "Khaki Guy (KG)" is Japanese by a long shot, nor even a military person.....he doesn't have the "I'll die for the Emperor, RIGHT NOW!!" look that the other obvious Jap soldier does......Looks Phillipino or similar.

Type 89 left out of [F]rancillion's book. notice the spent shell catcher. I have seen a few like this <SNIP>, it will help with IDing the one suspect cartridge catcher known to exist today.

Seth, there are several presumed-Japanese Type 98/Type 1 versions of "shell-hose" type 'hulsensacke' known to exist in private hands here, "rare" but certainly more than one exist to examine the basic type construction....here's the one again that was kindly shared with me and is owned by an advanced collector in Kentucky. You'll immediately note the same type of large-weave fabric and very similar sheetmetal work of the one shown for the Type 89, almost a burlap type fabric, very coarse and not at all like the very smooth tightly woven cotton canvas type fabric of the original MG15 "shell-hose" type hulsensack construction.

lets not forget LT. Kennedy.

NO, Let's DO forget him. Your youthful age is showing! Seriously though, I will say one thing with regard to the Kennedy Clan....at least you knew up front what you were getting with them, it was old-school corruption right up front, no one ever got surprised by Pappa Joe or his progeny.....you signed on for the familial corruption and knew what was coming going in. And to be honest, I'd have to suggest that JFK was probably the last of the "good" Democrats, meaning that I would take JFK today in a heartbeat over Obama or his slithering ilk......a little Kennedy-style institutionalized graft and organized crime-level corruption could be dealt with, still.

[sbl11]

Did i say i thought he was japanese? i thought i was clear on the fact that i thought he was filipino

[Bil]

Tom-I like your final paragraph! I know way more than I want to about that whole group,and their dealings back in the early 1900s and up. Glad to see there is still more info on the Japanese guns coming out.I agree-the man in the funny hat is not the same as the last gunner pic.I am still searching for my pics of the funny hat man,I also believe he is filipino.I have several pics with captions somewhere..... ---bil

[Bil]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =230422279 I highly recomend this book if you are at all interested in this subject.Manufacturers marks,material used marks,history,all the boring crap you will need to better understand this industry and how it affected the war. Japanese version not availlable! Seriously,if you don't have it and you are reading this 17 page thread,get it.$40 bucks is the regular price. ---bil

[sbl11]

why would german bakelite not have any german markings on it? Seems fishy, does the book mention anything about unmarked resin?

I think that it could be japanese based on the lack of markings and the red insert ring being left un pinned to the outer wrapping. Just the difference in material used for the insert ring raises questions to its orgins in germany. But, I dont have the book and am only speculating based on observations of german bakelite all showing markings and photos of suspect type 98s with cast resin rears.


Can you perhaps tell me where my cover was made:
H575
ehj

[TactAdv]

Can you perhaps tell me where my cover was made:
H575
ehj

Likely.....let me get to it tonight when I get home.....

-TomH

[sbl11]

Thanks Tom,

I'll post a few of the scans from the documents I copied later as well. I hope they turn out ok.

-seth

[TactAdv]

why would german bakelite not have any german markings on it? Seems fishy, does the book mention anything about unmarked resin?

Because, increasingly as the War progressed, German Industry didn't always follow the rules on many such things. Not uncommon, despite rigid specifications and protocols to the contrary never having been rescinded.

I think that it could be japanese based on the lack of markings and the red insert ring being left un pinned to the outer wrapping. Just the difference in material used for the insert ring raises questions to its orgins in {G}ermany.

No, I don't see this as really any definitive issue, many such items, while adhering to very rigid specifications also allowed the individual mfgrs wide latitude at arriving at the finished specification in terms of being permitted the option of using varying manufacturing techniques so long as the final product met those specifications; This is as it should be to permit the widest possible participation of Industry taking into account their unique and varying production capabilities and facilities as not every factory could make things the same way or was equipped with the same equipment. I think you just ran across an example of an (allowed) alternate manufacturing technique, ie., a true "ersatz" piece. This is the actual German definition for "ersatz" articles, "made by other means". I don't have an extensive collection of rear covers here, only about 6 total, nor have I had occasion to examine more than about 20 total, mostly at the AF Museum in Dayton, but I would tend to think there are more than just one way these were made over time. Nothing there, to me, specifically spells out Japanese mfgr, nor does it specifically discount it either.

Can you perhaps tell me where my cover was made:
H575
ehj

'ehj' = Gebruder Spindler Betreffs-KG, Köppeldorf im Thüringen.

H575 = is this marking correct? As in EXACTLY? There is a listed 'H5' mfgr code, probably then a subcontractor to the above, but there is no, specific listing/code for an 'H575' ?? Are you sure the 'H5' is all in line with the '75' ? Are they stacked vertically inside an MPD marking? A good, well-lit, clear picture would help.......there are also material codes for the base resin material, but none that match what you have there?? Again....a picture would help...

-TomH

[sbl11]

Looking strictly at nagoya guns, does anyone have a theory on why there is so much of a difference in manufacture technique in production of type 98s and type 1's. Remember, nagoya did produce both, and omitted the second grip from production unlike most yokosuka type 1's.


Nagoya Type 98:
all parts match german made parts identically in manufacture.

Nagoya Type 1:
-Round holes in barrel shroud
-both front and rear sight bases dovetailed
-circle holes in front of mounting ring, not just aft mount
-no aluminum bolt handle extention
-sandblasted and phosphated finish, not blued
-grips typically without locking device
-different reciever markings
-no locking disk for endcap


all these differences occur within the same time frame of production within the same plant. they are slight variations, but none the less, very distinguishing factors considering the different machines needed to make the different parts.


one thing that can be noted is that all nagoya type 98s I reviewed have been from 1943,except mine, dated 1944. many nagoya type 1's are also 1944 dated. I guess it could be a dramatic change from early to late 44 that had such an effect.
I have never seen a type 98 dated prior to 1943, and never one dated later than that of my own in january of 1944. However, I have never seen any nagoya type 1's dated prior to 1944, and most seem to be from 1945.

the changes are dramatic in 1944, guns that are as great of quaility as german guns, guns that could even be mistaken for german mg15s unless markings are visible, ...to guns that have so many different parts unlike the original german design.

The nagoya type 98s are so much better made in comparison that one could almost assume that they were german guns marked with japanese symbols. i'm not saying that's what happened, but given the extreme change of design within the same factory within the same time frame, it keeps coming to question. And, why not mark the nagoya type 1's with the nagoya arsenal symbol? sure seems like a stamp should take less time that an electro pencil 1-79-1 marking!

[sbl11]

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one thing you will notice about the hulsensack the japanese had is the way the canvas is attached to the metal portion. In both picture you'll notice they are riveted in some fashion, not sewn on to leather. Can you see under the leather, are there any rivets visible? How is it attached, you cant' sewn into metal.

[bmg17a1]

Expended case collector in above picture is constructed to fit on a T92 aircraft Lewis, not a T98/1 so can't fairly be compared to the T98/1 type.

Bob

[sbl11]

if its of japanese origin, then it shows material used and the approach taken in construction. The francillion picture above shows a different japanese made copy of the german spent shell catcher. It is made of leather, or possibly rubber(the small cirlce bumps are way more defined than that of those on a football) and has a similar method of attachment via sewing. but, looking at the canvas on the type 92 does allow us to see that the material of known use on japanese guns is quite different than that of the hulsensack.






look at the bottom of this picture, they have it disconnected






the following picture is supposedly a japanese type 98, however, it is most likely not. There has been no indication that the japanese used the ball mount(which aircraft had these mounts), and the rear sight extention for use with the ball mount is also very indicative of german. Most likely an early german gun with a wooden cover. OR A JAPANESE GUN WITH GERMAN PARTS INSTALLED. the problem with the second assumption is that there is no evidence of japanese aircraft using a german ball

[sbl11]

"5 October 1943:
The I-8 departs Brest escorted by two M-class minesweepers. Her cargo includes six 13-mm Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 131 machine guns with full ammunition...."

Pretty neat! They were carrying mg131 mg's in late 1943 via submarine among other things.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/I-8.htm

-seth

[sbl11]

the type 1 i pictured is made by nagoya, so it would have different characteristics from your yokuska gun, i believe anywys. I think that yoko stopped making guns before nagoya. My reason for this is because nagoya had a larger factory more capable of supply. So, I do not think that the serial numbers between the two different factories coincide with each other. This gun could have been made either prior or after your gun, unless they did communicate between the plants on serial numbers.

I change my mind. The I now believe that the two different type 1 variations were built at the yokosuka naval arsenal or some smaller arsenal within the same area. Judging from how similar the markings are as well as the common date of "20" on all known specimen of the "nagoya pattern" type 1 guns, it make chronological sense that these were intended for army use and manufactured under very similar circumstances as those produced for the navy. Since Nagoya was bombed extensively throughout 1944, especially mid to late, the production ceasing and shift to guns made with similar markings as the "navy guns" seems to point to a common factory. Because the "army pattern" guns are not marked with the nagoya arsenal stamp, and instead show markings of 1-79-1, it makes sense that these guns, while having the qualities of the type 98 and in particular the lack of a second grip, that these were not made by nagoya arsenal. The latest type 98 i have seen is my own January of 1944. THe latest type 1 army pattern I have seen is also soon to be my own. More to come when it arrives. Does anyone have a "20" dated type 1 navy? I believe that I have only seen "19" dates for them. If this is the case, could yokosuka transitioned to the production of a common mg-15 copy for both the army and the navy in 1945?

[bmg17a1]

Here's an interesting shot of an MG15 in a German MG blister. What is the hose/line feed device on the left side of the receiver.

1.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=0]MG15 device

Bob

[sbl11]

Very Interesting! Look like it might be some sort of electric heating device for high altitude. Maybe they were worried icing would lock up the cam. Hard to tell for sure, but thats my best guess.

-seth

[Bil]

I recognise that picture-it was taken over Kiev-I have posted either that one or another from the strip.On another forum it was discussed,no positive conclusion.Heater was one thought,also a method of removing fumes when fired,a vacuum type maybe. Keep them from building up in the blister. ---bil

[TactAdv]

Here's an interesting shot of an MG15 in a German MG blister. What is the hose/line feed device on the left side of the receiver.

Bob

Oh, that's easy, Bob. That is actually NOT part of the gun at all, it is part of the turret. First off, that is mounted in a very common FW-189 observation plane, at the rear defensive gunners position. Those turrets are kind of unique. They were made by IKARIA-Werke, and are generically known as "Linsenlafette LL-K" types. There were several variations, that one is obviously enough for mounting an MG-15, though the LL-K81 was similar and mounted a MG-81Z.

The cool thing about these turret mounts was how they worked; it is hard to figure out from just the picture but the gun is mounted to that transverse bar shown there and is free to pivot up-and-down around the bars axis. The transverse bar then bridges the entire steel ring circle which forms the edges of the turret in the plastic glazed vision dome on the aircraft. The WHOLE RING IS ONE BIG GEAR, and is motored around the circumference of the glazed dome on command of the gunner by an electric motor driving a pinion gear on the ring-mounts outside surface. In this way, the gunner can rapidly traverse, track, and engage a rapidly moving enemy aircraft through the full range for vertical and horizontal translation while the turret only has to provide powered translation around the central axis; the horizontal gun mount bar providing all the other needed range of movement which just moves with the gunners hand held on the grip.......an absolutely ingenious method of tracking on all three axis.

What you see there, and what you are asking about is merely the gunners directional control switch, mounted/clamped to the receiver of the MG-15. The gunner merely pushes the switch in either direction and the turret ring begins rotating; by merely holding onto the grip and pointing the sights at the enemy plane, as the ring and bar rotate together the MG-15 will move both vertically and horizontally as needed to stay on target. The electrics had a logic circuit built in to the power drive that as the ring crossed over from port to starboard it automatically and seamlessly reversed (electrically) the controls commands so the gunner could continue to track and engage a target through the neutral point with no changes in his command inputs.

What you see there is the clamp on control box, which just clamped on the gun, and its extended connecting cable.

There were two available LuftWaffe manuals:

LDv 125/1- "Entwurf einer Beschreibung, Einbau- Bedienungs und Wartungsvorschrift der großen Linsenlafette"

LDv 125/2- "Entwurf einer Beschreibung, Einbringungs, Bedienungs und Wartungsvorschrift"

....which covered installations in a wide variety of planes. Maybe Herr Baum will wish to translate these as there is obviously such a huge market!! ;-)

-TomH (purveyor of arcane knowledge)

[TactAdv]

Dang! Double post! Mods....please delete. ;-)