Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

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[Bil]

Nice! Is the wood from a Japanese tree? More info on the last gun,please.See where all this is getting you?
---bil

[sbl11]

Dear collector who painted all these japanese army aircraft machine guns green post ww2, why did you do this? NO, seriously though, i do believe that the painting of these weapons was done by the japanese. It matches the green paint found on many of the army planes, and it just seems unlikely that a collector spent the time to select only japanese aircraft guns to paint green. I think that he must have had some knowledge of these weapons when he spent the time acquiring them to have more sense than to paint them So, while these few guns(minus the newly discovered type 1 serial number 1807) are slightly off topic, they do show the japanese custom of painting the aircraft guns green. The same green appears throughout the type 98, type 89 flexible, and type 1 dual barrel. I was quite happy in discovering these today. Also, there does appear to be a mark in the same spot on the bakelite(covered by the paint) similar to the one found in my bakelite. I will work on getting this one's end cap off too, but when i tried today, it was just as dificult to remove...i will work for this museum over the summer and see what i can do then.

-seth

[sbl11]

Bil,

If by wood, you mean the type 98's bakelite rear, then i would say yes, it comes from the japanese "tree"...ahha pretty neat that the museum didnt have the second nagoya type 1 logged correctly, and it suprised me upon my visit today. I think it is quite awesome to have discovered the two guns that are only 61 numbers apart. they both have the same front sight, and i believe that these late war gun's sights were constructed to screw into place much like a bolt into a nut. I will get more up close pictures, but in previous photos you can kind of see the nut, and its interesting to note that in these type 1's the post is in front of the ring sight, where as in previous examples, the ring is in front of the post. hmmmm

I think these other painted guns show the extent of such a practice in the army aircraft, and that the bakelite rear, being painted this same green would have been in place during the war to recieve this paint scheme as well.

I think this is the final nail in the coffin on the bakelite usage by the japanese air force, on nagoya type 98's.

-seth

[sbl11]

More info on the last gun,please

the last gun pictured is the type 89 flexible. it is missing its pistol grip, but the trigger is still in place. It either broke off, or so poor joe's package never made it home containing that part when he tried to ship it home piece by piece...haha

[sbl11]

also, you will see the type 1 dual pictures first do not have the drum. this is because the curators didn't know that it fit that gun. I saw it sitting on a box in the corner, and immediately hit the roof. they are very rare elongations of the standard drum. each side of the drum feed one barrel. It is also painted green. I had a blast going through thier stash, they even had a 20mm japanese orlikeon aircraft cannon!!! I wish this was my collection

[IMBLITZVT]

This could help you really prove the theory if you do it right.

First, do not assume who painted these... one way or other. The idea that someone painted them up for a display makes just as much sense as the Japs painting them. I am sure the japs did not put a tag on the side in english IDing the guns. If someone will take the time to do that, I am sure they will paint them up too.

So get yourself a lead paint tester. Test it. If its not lead, you know its modern. Then find some other Jap equip and the paint should be almost exact. Lets see this. Check for paint in areas where it would have worn off it the gun was shot. Look for paint over pitting. If they were going to paint, they would have probably done it before pitting happened. Are the guns rusty? They look so in the pictures?

Also ask yourself, why paint the back of guns that were hidden inside planes? Not saying it did not happen but lets take a good look at this, most Aircraft guns are not painted unless they are WWI guns used outside the plane.

[bmg17a1]

I happened to click onto the T98/T1 discussion where there was a single pic of a T1 that 'bil' posted, and recognized it as one of my guns. Then at the end of the the next post from Seth about that gun:

>I am willing to bet that the bakelite on that gun is original to it. Anymore pictures of it would be great!<

Sorry, it is German, added from the ground kit assembled to the Jap receiver, but none of which was pictured. During a vist to my shop a few months ago, 'bil' took some pics of some of the guns. I'm not sure why he didn't explain in his post whose gun it was and how it was configured which would have prevented any erroneous assumptions and speculations. Maybe he just wanted to throw a monkey wrench into the works......8^).

Bob Naess

[Bil]

No monkeys here! I try not to identify the owners of any guns I have pictures of without permission,or any locations that may be recognised. I did tell Seth that he may get the chance to visit it,however!
When I was up there,I didn't get to ask about that particular gun,I was still kind of awe-struck at the collection!
Thanks again,Bob! ---bil

[sbl11]

Well, Damn...looks like i was totally wrong...haha...you guys are right, the proof is in the opposing direction from the use of bakelite.

but to answer the question about the condition of the guns, they were painted on when these guns had no rust, and the rust developed after on the surface of the paint.



Oh and believe it or not, I put the bakelite cover on my own gun just to stir up this mess...hahaha (jk, the bakelite is original to my gun.)


I have noticed that aside from the gun bob has(type 1) all the bakelite rears i have seen are on nagoya type 98's

[sbl11]

I'll let you do the footwork for the lead paint testing

[sbl11]

lets ask this question, why paint the insides of the planes at all?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/walk/dave_pluth/davesg4m.htm


The following is the interior paint on a G4M "BETTY" ***note the tope right corner of the picture of the "interior green sample"*****


Aparently they painted the interior green as well, so heck looks like everything got painted

[sbl11]

Check for paint in areas where it would have worn off it the gun was shot.

Well the grips and the bolt handles on both the type 98 and type 1 dual are scratched up and appear to be missing some of their paint. Seems like these places would be touch quite frequently. But, the paint went on surprisingly thick and very glossy. It appears that they were painted when these guns were very clean, and they don't appear to have seen much action. However, the type 98's shroud does look like it has lost alot of the paint over the years as well.

[sbl11]

I just did the number crunching, it appears that nagoya produced 5,610 barrels in a matter of 9 months(18.3-19.1). In that same time period they only produced 2,755 total type 98's. That is roughly two barrels for every gun. But, the odd thing is, that this means that prior to 18.3(march 1943) the production of barrels had reached 13,279(same number as on the painted barrel) yet the production of type 98's was only 1,740.


I find it highly unlikely that the method for which these barrels were serialized fits the production frame of the gun. I say this because 13, 279 barrels is ALOT for a period when less than 2,000 guns were completed. And, due to the 18.3-19.1 study, which is gives a more probably estimate for the comparison, i think that the japanese barrels coming off the line at nagoya were serialized in the order of completion with NO REGARD TO WHICH WEAPON THEY WOULD BE FITTED.

Even more strage, the type 1 guns made at nagoya lack this serialization entirely. They are hand stamped as seen in pictures to match their weapon. There is no second serial number specific only to the barrel.

Seems to me that nagoya was running alot of seperate departments and that there was little interaction between them, or that more likely than not, these different parts were produced by other factories near by and assembled in nagoya arsenal.


I will have to look at the dual type 1 barrels to see for sure, but i have a feeling that they will also fall in the range of barrels produced between 18.3-19.1 (serial numbers: 13,279-18889) because it was made in 18.11, and slightly more than 2,000 were made by that date.


Long story, short...I think that the barrels were serialized prior to the installation on a gun, directly off the production line, and without any consideration for the which type weapon they were produced for.

[sbl11]

For Bil,

Here is some more info on the type 89 via picture:



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Here is a dual type 1(prior to its simplifiaction I have been told it was called the the type 100):



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Both pictures are from a Ki-48 "lilly" too bad I havent found any type 98 pictures like these.

[Bil]

Two from the internet a while ago,can't remember the source.Somewhere I have a pic from inside the plane looking aft. ---bil

[TactAdv]

lets ask this question, why paint the insides of the planes at all?

Seth, since I come from the world of aviation, let me answer that question as it is a very easy one. Quite simply it is done as an anti-corrosion protection measure.

In modern times, we use what is called a "zinc-chromate finish(paint)". ZC is an absolutely puke-green color, almost a fluorescent green in hue, the color is always standardized and for two reasons. One, it is a chemical coloration of the actual compound, and two it makes it quite easy to see if it is damaged or compromised on the aircraft surfaces to which it applied. ZC is, by virtue of its zinc content, a sacrificial-anode coating that if any galvanic currents are induced into the aircraft structure via oxidation or other dissimilar metals contact, the zinc in the paint compound is first consumed instead of the AL/Ti/Fe areas of the aircraft.

ZC coating is VERY old; there have been many formulations over the decades, but a certain characteristic of ALL of them is that they are all "green" to one degree or another (this is also why the earlier WWII-era "parkerizing" left the metals "green" because it was a zinc-phosphate compound, versus the modern manganese-phosphate base solution). In many cases the ZC paint does not make for a true, suitable, base coat for other finishes and so is left by itself....where I am driving this discussion is that knowing that the Jap planes, of ALL services, would ALWAYS be operated in some form of fashion near sea water, it is quite probably that this characteristic green paint is actually the common anti-corrosion coating they used and by virtue of their formulation, it just also happened to be a nice "camouflage" base color. Painting the guns the same as the planes would have been done for the same reason as they were exposed to the same environmental effects and would have suffered the same.
-TomH

[Bil]

Tom-I just had a real nice tour of the Boeing C17 plant,and you are right about the coating.The limey green color has been around since at least WW II,and is also used on commercial aircraft.You can see it when landing,inside the flaps. The entire plane is painted inside,even inside the wings,every little spot.Even between panels and ribs,it also has something to do with isolating for electrical purposes.Very interesting.No pictures,of course! ---bil

[sbl11]

Hahaha, thanks guys, my question war a bit cynical and sarcastic. However, Edwin Libby says that he has seen alot of ijn artifacts painted black! Including weapons! I believe that you may be right Tom. I think that the paint coating has done an excellent job keeping the guns in fair condition for these 70 years or so. The surface rust that has collected on them is very minor.

I have seen that neon green puky color used for a primer as well. But, this paint is from what i can tell not a primer and looks to be a finishing paint similar in color, if not exact, to the olive drab paint i have seen on the aircraft.

Interesting to note, If you look at the bakelite rear that is painted, you will see two small holes that appear to be from where a plaque was attached at somepoint. Also, where the bakelite "pins" should be to hold the interior bakelite ring at the rear, they are missing leaving open holes. From the looks of it, the interior bakelite fitting ring is absent. I could be wrong, but that was my personal opinion having reviewed it.

You don't think that perhaps the inner locking "washer" could have been permanently attached(welded) so to expedite the construction and simply the parts? That is the only thing I can think of beside the threads on both guns being screwed up...(no pun intended..haha)...i am worried that i may try to hard on this gun that isn't mine, and damage it if this is the case.

Bil,
Thanks for the pictures. I have seen them poth, they are from WMP easterly's sight i believe. I can't be certain for obvious reasons, but i do not know that the japanese ever used a ball mount, and i also have never seen the rear sight extention that is displayed on that gun. So, i am leaning towards a german gun with wooden rear for that picture.

I too have seen the aft looking type 98, it is very hard to see it though. It is in the rear of a ki-45 nick

most of the guns i have seen are the type 92 lewis.

And dad gum it Bil, you set me up throwing that monkey wrench in this discussion. haha...however, you did help me find one in New Guinea with what appears to be a bakelite rear. I tried contacting them, but nothing, looks like im sending a letter to new guinea. Anyone know what language i should write it in?haha

[sbl11]

jeez, lets start with english first...haha..i just reread what i just posted, and boy do i feel stupid. ERRORS EVERYWHERE! This is what happens when you rush something out, you get less than quaility work! Sounds like the story of the japanese arms industry...haha