Oh I am no expert either, but I think we can all agree that Mr. Libby is. He believes that bakelite was used, and in essence, I am his pawn to find more information on the topic. Heck most of these ideas come from him. I simpky reiterate what he has already concluded, and provide the evidence that he helps me find. Without him, I would not have found half the dtat thus far, and because its a mutual deal, I relay my findings to him. I am sending the whole 72 page japanese document to him.
Also as far as the documnet is concern, I feel that if it was a copy of a german manual, then there would be some indication of the origianl german. I feel it would be the same manual with a different translation, not a completely redawn data sheet with diagrams.
-seth
Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
TOM!!!!! what a neat little bakelite canister you found! Looks like very dark bakelite! Its odd how bakelite can at time look very different in composition. Im sure it is, in small degrees, but phenolic resins come in all different colors and textures depending on the insulator administered in them, i would imagine. I have seen that phone before, but not the gas canister! very interesting finds! 
-seth
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
One thing, food for thought if you will, that I am just noticing here is that sights pictured in those sheets you posted are exactly the same as std German sights, the simple ring and fixed post versions (I don't have the proper German nomenclature handy), but they vary quite remarkably from the actual sights shown on the pictured gun above in the thread??? The drawn front sight is, for one, non-tapered whereas the actual sight pictured is indeed tapered along it shaft??? Secondly, the drawn ring sight is a clone of the German one, but the pictured speed ring is completely different.sbl11 wrote:Also as far as the documnet is concern, I feel that if it was a copy of a german manual, then there would be some indication of the origianl german. I feel it would be the same manual with a different translation, not a completely redawn data sheet with diagrams.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
yes! you are right, i noticed that as well. But, if you refer to the crash airplane picture, you will see the sight from the manual installed on the type 98 in the nose of the aircraft
LOTS OF VARIANTIONS! that sight could be a late war sight, or from another gun and made to fit the type 1 it is in. there is an odd cotter pin without chain holding it in place as well.
LOTS OF VARIANTIONS! that sight could be a late war sight, or from another gun and made to fit the type 1 it is in. there is an odd cotter pin without chain holding it in place as well.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
I am pretty sure that I have never argued that the Japs could not have made them. I simply don't see it as very likely late in the war as stated. I just have not seen proof that these are not replacement German covers put on post WWII... thats all I am saying.
I don't pretend to know when drawings in a manual were drawn and by who. They could be Jap drawn at some earlier time and simply reprinted. They could be copies of the Germans and simply changed with Jap writing. They could have been drawn in 1942... they are drawings who knows what the person drawing them copied them from and when he did it. I can give you a copy of a M16 manual from 2011, does that mean all drawings in it were from 2011? No, they could be from Vietnam and reprinted... Are drawings in a Israeli M16 Manaul drawn by Jews or did they use the American manual and add hebrew text? Who knows... I just can't use it as evidence in this case, sorry.
Seth, besides all this and very seriously, I would suggest you look more into headspacing. Its a very important issue and can be very dangerous. It does not sound like you are completely understanding it. Parts kits can tell you nothing about the headspace as the bolt is not seated in the receiver. Just because a barrel locks into place does not mean its safe or headspaced correctly. Any time a barrel, bolt, barrel extention...etc is changed out, the headspace must be checked unless it has been done before and numbered to the gun. Failure to do so can cause an explosion!
This is my exact point in comparing the covers. If its Jap made, its very unlikely that it will have the same color and patterns as the German ones.sbl11 wrote:Looks like very dark bakelite! Its odd how bakelite can at time look very different in composition. Im sure it is, in small degrees, but phenolic resins come in all different colors and textures depending on the insulator administered in them,...
I don't pretend to know when drawings in a manual were drawn and by who. They could be Jap drawn at some earlier time and simply reprinted. They could be copies of the Germans and simply changed with Jap writing. They could have been drawn in 1942... they are drawings who knows what the person drawing them copied them from and when he did it. I can give you a copy of a M16 manual from 2011, does that mean all drawings in it were from 2011? No, they could be from Vietnam and reprinted... Are drawings in a Israeli M16 Manaul drawn by Jews or did they use the American manual and add hebrew text? Who knows... I just can't use it as evidence in this case, sorry.
Seth, besides all this and very seriously, I would suggest you look more into headspacing. Its a very important issue and can be very dangerous. It does not sound like you are completely understanding it. Parts kits can tell you nothing about the headspace as the bolt is not seated in the receiver. Just because a barrel locks into place does not mean its safe or headspaced correctly. Any time a barrel, bolt, barrel extention...etc is changed out, the headspace must be checked unless it has been done before and numbered to the gun. Failure to do so can cause an explosion!
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
haha...all these drawings are of originally german designs! the germans had the material already, the japanese copied it. Heck they even included the loading block!
Interesting to note---the brass catcher is the same one pictured on the francillion gun!
look at the difference in finish on the pictures tom posted from the three websites. They dont match. so, I believe that if bakelite was made in japan, which it was, it suffered the same variety of textures and colors that you will also find in german bakelite. the high gloss finish on the gas canister resembles the finish to some degree of my rear. But as does the telephone. i would say it looks a bit like each. some bakelite turned out looking orange or brown, or black, or even a shade of red. I feel that this was the case in both countries. I can't tell the difference between other mg15 parts from those of type 98/type 1s. Plastics might seem to be easily distinguishable, but i feel that they aren't. the pictures posted of the japanese bakelite have the same variences similar to those found in german bakelite.
This is quite an interesting topic.
how did you check your headspacing on your type 98?
Interesting to note---the brass catcher is the same one pictured on the francillion gun!
This is my exact point in comparing the covers. If its Jap made, its very unlikely that it will have the same color and patterns as the German ones.
look at the difference in finish on the pictures tom posted from the three websites. They dont match. so, I believe that if bakelite was made in japan, which it was, it suffered the same variety of textures and colors that you will also find in german bakelite. the high gloss finish on the gas canister resembles the finish to some degree of my rear. But as does the telephone. i would say it looks a bit like each. some bakelite turned out looking orange or brown, or black, or even a shade of red. I feel that this was the case in both countries. I can't tell the difference between other mg15 parts from those of type 98/type 1s. Plastics might seem to be easily distinguishable, but i feel that they aren't. the pictures posted of the japanese bakelite have the same variences similar to those found in german bakelite.
This is quite an interesting topic.
how did you check your headspacing on your type 98?
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Checked, Yes, agree....but the design of the MG15 (more appropriately the design of ALL "Stange/Solothurn lock" type guns and auto-cannons) does not permit any adjustment to headspace, per se. The interrupted threads used to both mount the quick-change barrel and in the actual bolt locking arrangement are solely dependent upon the accuracy of teh original manufacturing process to assure proper interlocking fit, and that combined with the proper reaming of the initial chamber dimensions is provides and assures safe headspace in the COMBINATION OF PARTS.IMBLITZVT wrote:Just because a barrel locks into place does not mean its safe or headspaced correctly. Any time a barrel, bolt, barrel extention...etc is changed out, the headspace must be checked unless it has been done before and numbered to the gun. Failure to do so can cause an explosion!
Barrel chambers wear, or 'grow', and threaded joints SOMETIMES alter their fit slightly, so I am all in agreement that checking is a great practice but there is little one can do to alter the discovered "headspace" except for trying to assemble a more compliant matching in the various assemblage of parts(bolt, barrel, barrel extension, and extension lock ring). Same exact thing goes for any of the "Solothurn" type guns and cannons.
-TH
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Checked, Yes, agree....but the design of the MG15 (more appropriately the design of ALL "Stange/Solothurn lock" type guns and auto-cannons) does not permit any adjustment to headspace, per se. The interrupted threads used to both mount the quick-change barrel and in the actual bolt locking arrangement are solely dependent upon the accuracy of teh original manufacturing process to assure proper interlocking fit, and that combined with the proper reaming of the initial chamber dimensions is provides and assures safe headspace in the COMBINATION OF PARTS.IMBLITZVT wrote:Just because a barrel locks into place does not mean its safe or headspaced correctly. Any time a barrel, bolt, barrel extention...etc is changed out, the headspace must be checked unless it has been done before and numbered to the gun. Failure to do so can cause an explosion!
Barrel chambers wear, or 'grow', and threaded joints SOMETIMES alter their fit slightly, so I am all in agreement that checking is a great practice but there is little one can do to alter the discovered "headspace" except for trying to assemble a more compliant matching in the various assemblage of parts(bolt, barrel, barrel extension, and extension lock ring). Same exact thing goes for any of the "Solothurn" type guns and cannons.
-TH
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Knowing that Bakelite changes so much, if your cover looks a lot like a German one in color and pattern... well then its probably German as Jap made ones would have to look different... see the logic?
Yes I know what you mean. German MG08 and MG08/15s can not adjust the headspace either. However you better check it. Then you have to trade out barrels/ locks/ barrel extensions until they work. Or you can open the chamber up a little more if its to tight... This is not uncommon and causes major problems for shooting MG08s today. The Germans were known for their machining... the Japs were not. I would make double sure to check it and understand the issues to make sure you are safe!
Yes I know what you mean. German MG08 and MG08/15s can not adjust the headspace either. However you better check it. Then you have to trade out barrels/ locks/ barrel extensions until they work. Or you can open the chamber up a little more if its to tight... This is not uncommon and causes major problems for shooting MG08s today. The Germans were known for their machining... the Japs were not. I would make double sure to check it and understand the issues to make sure you are safe!
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Knowing that Bakelite changes so much, if your cover looks a lot like a German one in color and pattern... well then its probably German as Jap made ones would have to look different... see the logic?
No, i believe i haven't conveyed this clearly, or at least it seems this way because you have missed my point. What i am saying is that bakelite in both countries had lots of variations. plain and simple, the parts that Tom posted look very much like my reciever cover. The parts he posted if you looked were japanese. but, the japanese parts posted by tom(ie the canister and phone) do resemble german bakelite parts also. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT YOU CAN"T ASSUME THESE ARE GERMAN MADE PARTS SOLELY BC THE APPEAR VERY SIMILAR, IF THAT WERE THE CASE, THEN YOU COULD ARGUE THAT THE JAPANESE BAKELITE PARTS (THE CANISTER AND THE PHONE) WERE NOT JAPANESE MADE PARTS EITHER, BUT GERMAN PARTS PRODUCED FOR THE JAPANESE. !!!!!AND THAT MAKES NO SENSE DUE TO THE PLASTICS INDUSTRY IN JAPAN!!!!!
These bakelites do look like german bakelites. I cant tell the difference. Japanese made recievers must look different from german reciever by that logic. or japanese barrels must look different from german barrels, bc there is no way due to distance and war that they could look the same.
Something that i have found odd is that my barrel was made in 1944(whenall the type 99 rifle barrels were starting to look fairly crude and rushed) and it looks in better shape then the german barrels. I honestly think it was finished with higher quality!
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Bil writes:
Any information at all on this gun? more pictures?
Another Japanese one.No historic info,some German parts.
Any information at all on this gun? more pictures?
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
No. ---bil 
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Is this your gun?
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
No,but I wouldn't mind having it! Another member here has this beauty. ---bil
( I only have the German versions 
)
BTW-are there any that you know of that are still mounted in any surviving japanese aircraft? There are several air museums near me,and if so,I could check it out.I don't think they would be on a fighter,there is a Zero that goes over once in a while.More likely a bomber or observation plane.
Another member here has this beauty. ---bil( I only have the German versions
)BTW-are there any that you know of that are still mounted in any surviving japanese aircraft? There are several air museums near me,and if so,I could check it out.I don't think they would be on a fighter,there is a Zero that goes over once in a while.More likely a bomber or observation plane.
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
They were mounted in ki-45 toryu's(nick), but there is only 1 of those left in the U.S. at the national air and space museum. They were also in Lily bombers, and the navy used them in thier recon place Saiun. Other than those, idont know, but could be many more.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
If this thread doesn't teach me anything more than that I need to get more machine guns in order to argue on an array of subjects/specimen with Imbliztvt, then I guess I can be satisfied with that...haha...heck, like you said, its like a car wreck, its fun to look at!
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
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type 1 dual barrel magazine similar, yet very different, to the doppeltrommel
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