Thanks for once again making this point. I guess I still tend to measure parts availability by later standards, but I am glad to know that for those who were collecting back then, you could get support for a lot of the guns.bmg17a1 wrote: Although parts weren't as ubiquitous by any measure as they were at the end of the century, there were plenty of parts to be had for all sorts of MGs.
Bob Naess
Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
RE: FOIA
Here's the address for sending an FOIA request.
BATF+E
Disclosure Branch
650 Mass Ave, N.W.
Wash., DC 20226
An alternative to sending a copy of your registration is having your signature notarized on the letter.
There are all sorts of variations to a "form' for this letter, but, in my experience, the type and serial of the MG is all that is really needed, along with proof that you are who you say or a copy of your reg. Stating that you will pay any expenses associated with the search used to be advised. I've never had to pay.
The information from the FOIA is always very interesting!
Good luck.
Bob
Here's the address for sending an FOIA request.
BATF+E
Disclosure Branch
650 Mass Ave, N.W.
Wash., DC 20226
An alternative to sending a copy of your registration is having your signature notarized on the letter.
There are all sorts of variations to a "form' for this letter, but, in my experience, the type and serial of the MG is all that is really needed, along with proof that you are who you say or a copy of your reg. Stating that you will pay any expenses associated with the search used to be advised. I've never had to pay.
The information from the FOIA is always very interesting!
Good luck.
Bob
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Several small items -making the parts from phenolic resin required very large and specific presses and molds-the Germans had been using these for quite a while before the war.I can't see them sending these to Japan during the war.And also as the war wore on ,the Germans themselves faced a shortage of these supplies,resulting in them resorting to using inferior 'fillers' to stretch the supplies.The Allied bombing effort took a big toll on the German chemical industries. I can't see them shipping it to Japan,even by cargo subs,the space was too valuable. ---bil
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
thanks Bob,
I am still unconvinced that the Japanese used only wood or bamboo, and while i have seen mostly wood, the picture above is described as a type 98 with a bakelite rear. There will alway be debate over this issue, but from what i have gathered the japanese were able to obtain bakelite in some form. If the bakelite is found to have been pinned in place, it will be the only true test to the originality of the rear. Otherwise there will never be a definitive answer to my personal gun. I still am curious about the synthetic rifle muzzle covers and type 94 grip panels. These two websight shows some of the material transported back and forth:( http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ult ... .html#tabd ) and ( http://www.i-52.com/index_files/Page428.htm )
-seth
I am still unconvinced that the Japanese used only wood or bamboo, and while i have seen mostly wood, the picture above is described as a type 98 with a bakelite rear. There will alway be debate over this issue, but from what i have gathered the japanese were able to obtain bakelite in some form. If the bakelite is found to have been pinned in place, it will be the only true test to the originality of the rear. Otherwise there will never be a definitive answer to my personal gun. I still am curious about the synthetic rifle muzzle covers and type 94 grip panels. These two websight shows some of the material transported back and forth:( http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ult ... .html#tabd ) and ( http://www.i-52.com/index_files/Page428.htm )
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
bil,
perhaps the tooling for the resin presses was shipped prior to the war in europe or just there after.
-seth
perhaps the tooling for the resin presses was shipped prior to the war in europe or just there after.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
I don,t see how the bakelite can be pinned-it would have to be pinned to the rear cover in the small flat before the taper.If he can move the cover 1/8",it doesn't seem it is pinned.The bakelite always seems a bit loose-can you wiggle the bakelite without the rear cover moving? ( to OP) What are the pins made of? On my covers,there are spots in the same location that look like pins-in a moment of stupidity I thought I would see if they are! 
Using a punch from the inside,I found that they are either pins or fillers-I got it to move back out! Very light tapping.It is made of bakelite,and if bakelite can have a grain,I would say the grain runs with the pin.So yes,the pin-like pieces do move,but the cover is not drilled for it.I still think it is crud in the little wedges.
Yes,the presses could have been shipped pre-war,I am not sure how much Japan used bakelite for other parts.So more info,some useful,some not. ---bil
Using a punch from the inside,I found that they are either pins or fillers-I got it to move back out! Very light tapping.It is made of bakelite,and if bakelite can have a grain,I would say the grain runs with the pin.So yes,the pin-like pieces do move,but the cover is not drilled for it.I still think it is crud in the little wedges.Yes,the presses could have been shipped pre-war,I am not sure how much Japan used bakelite for other parts.So more info,some useful,some not. ---bil
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
im sorry, not the cover doesnt move 1/8", i was refering to rotation of the endcap. I guess degrees of rotation would make more sense. I believe it will rotate 2 degrees each way. Again, the pins tacking the endcap through the threads was just a thought as to why it isnt coming undone. We figured maybe the japanese added this step in prevention of the endcap coming off during firing hitting the shooter in the face. Maybe as a redundancy factor in case for some reason the serrated washer did not lock the end cap. But, even i can't see there being any reason for doing so. Still trying to get x-rays. We have spent alot of time and effort and that damn cap wont budge. we are hesitant to apply anymore force as you can see there has been a slight whollering of the thread by the use of the large screw driver. Also if there does happen to be any form of pinning under the bakelite, we are afraid we would damage the metal, or the bakelite in forcing a rotation. But, i will say that we have put a great deal of force on the screw.
-seth
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Seth writes
>Who is to say the german did not provide them. The picture comes from Francillion's book. you are absolutely right. You have proven to me that there were no japanese copies with bakelite reciever covers. They certainly only used wood, and the german technicians bringing examples and blueprints could not have brought any spare parts. Although are know to have imported mg151/20 machine guns(all german) there is no possibility that mg-15's and spare parts were shipped as well. My gun most likely had its wood replaced.,
Last night I wrote a response to this post from Seth, but it disappeared for some reason and did not post here, so I'll make another effort.
I see that I've stepped on some toes here. Nothing personal, Seth, but the facts must fit documented history, and history must not be re-configured to fit the results we want. Having had countless discussions about provenance of MG parts or guns concerning all sorts of MGs for many years, my standards of proof are very high, and with good reason. What I will say in the following isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but it does bear repeating if we are to catalog the history of MGs correctly and accurately, which is what gets passed okn to new collectors and enthusiasts. Perhaps I am too hardnosed about verification and documentation, but the truth about history is far more interesting and valuable to me than some fabrication or speculation. Perhaps not to others.....
With all due respect, nothing in the previous thread about the cover on your gun even begins to support the hypothesis that your specific gun was outfitted specifically by the Japanese with a German marked receiver cover. There is always the possibility, of course, and with time and research perhaps some light may be thrown on this interesting question and with repect to your gun. That would be really interesting and valuable.
Drawing a multitude of general obvservations about the MG15s exported to Japan, their support with parts or not, their use as test guns for production development, possibility of markings or not, the use of synthetics, the materiel submarined to Japan by the Germans, other similar guns in museums, pictures of an alleged T98 without solid evidence of what the gun was, where it was obtained, when and form whom, and other random and miscellaneous information doesn't add up to any sort of verification of a specific instance of parts assembly. Much interesting info has been revealed, which is the very special and invaluable purpose and function of these boards, and I applaud your interest in finding an answer to the puzzle. It is not a new puzzle, by any stretch of the imagination, as every one of us has had all sorts of mysterious parts and guns over the years. What has changed form many years ago is the fact that we now have hundreds of private owners with dedicated experience with hundreds of different types of MGs, and a passion for researching the history of these guns. In my opinion, along with this goes the imperative of skepticism and a constant need for verifiable, documented proof. Nothing else will suffice, at least for me, if the history is to mean anything of value.
For too many years MG writers and researchers merely passed along all the old myths about MGs, which could never be tested against the guns themselves, simply because access to MGs has always been extremely limited and heavily controlled for all but a very few. Fortunately that has come to an end since so many of us have the guns and the experience to finally put down many of these myths. Iinertia is and has been rampant with the institutionalized soources of Mg information. A case in point is Aberdeen rpoving Grounds Museum. They have some fabulous MGs, which have been on display for many years, but many of their IDs are wrong, but despite numerous requests by those who actually know the information and even own the same types of guns, they just do not change the info cards. This is not uncommon!
Little is documented with respect to the manufacture, use and post-military history of most MGs, although there has been a lot of good research over the years mining what is available. Add to that, the mostly completely invisible paths of use and abuse taken by most MGs before arriving in the US, from manufacture to import. If there is anything that is evident, broadly speaking, it is that most MGs moved around a great deal from arsenal to arsenal, storage depot to storage depot, army to army, country to country, with all sorts of other types of users in between. Further, many MGs were altered or rebuilt with stores of parts acquired from the factory, battlefield pickups, militarily acquired arsenals, commercial sources and other means. What we collect is the refuse of war, which we have now elevated to the status of industrial art and we have innumerable questions about just exactly what we now possess. Most MGs come from this swamp of the history histopry of war.
The first time I ever wondered about where an MG came from was driving with my family, as a ten year old, north through eastern NY state returning to Vermont. This was probably 1952 or 1953. There was a sled mounted MG08 by the side of a driveway entrance with a mailbox strapped on top of the front of the jacket. I can see it today in my minds eye. After repeatedly begging my father to stop, we did turn around and go back to talk with the homeowner. I was buzzing with questions, but the owner knew just about nothing about the gun, except that his father had obtained it somewhere and he'd made a mailbox stand out of it. He didn't even know what country it came from or what model it was. I was really crestfallen, having expected all sorts of exotic and romantic info and hopefuly stories. It was frustrating, and I remember feeling that there was a lot more than met the eye and really wanted to know as much as I could find out about that gun and others. Other circumstances conspired to push me into buying DEWATs a few years later, but the curiosity about the story behind the MGs remained. Of course, I am still frustrated by so much missing information, as are lots of other MG addicts, and I am still fascinated by new information and history as it is revealed.
Of course, it may not appear so, but, I am on your side in your search for info and wish you the best of luck. However, I have a large supply of monkeywrenches and have no compunction about using them to help insure that the info that we pass along is accurate and verifiable. We only serve oursleves by maintaining a high standard of proof, anyway.....end of ramble.
Bob
>Who is to say the german did not provide them. The picture comes from Francillion's book. you are absolutely right. You have proven to me that there were no japanese copies with bakelite reciever covers. They certainly only used wood, and the german technicians bringing examples and blueprints could not have brought any spare parts. Although are know to have imported mg151/20 machine guns(all german) there is no possibility that mg-15's and spare parts were shipped as well. My gun most likely had its wood replaced.,
Last night I wrote a response to this post from Seth, but it disappeared for some reason and did not post here, so I'll make another effort.
I see that I've stepped on some toes here. Nothing personal, Seth, but the facts must fit documented history, and history must not be re-configured to fit the results we want. Having had countless discussions about provenance of MG parts or guns concerning all sorts of MGs for many years, my standards of proof are very high, and with good reason. What I will say in the following isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but it does bear repeating if we are to catalog the history of MGs correctly and accurately, which is what gets passed okn to new collectors and enthusiasts. Perhaps I am too hardnosed about verification and documentation, but the truth about history is far more interesting and valuable to me than some fabrication or speculation. Perhaps not to others.....
With all due respect, nothing in the previous thread about the cover on your gun even begins to support the hypothesis that your specific gun was outfitted specifically by the Japanese with a German marked receiver cover. There is always the possibility, of course, and with time and research perhaps some light may be thrown on this interesting question and with repect to your gun. That would be really interesting and valuable.
Drawing a multitude of general obvservations about the MG15s exported to Japan, their support with parts or not, their use as test guns for production development, possibility of markings or not, the use of synthetics, the materiel submarined to Japan by the Germans, other similar guns in museums, pictures of an alleged T98 without solid evidence of what the gun was, where it was obtained, when and form whom, and other random and miscellaneous information doesn't add up to any sort of verification of a specific instance of parts assembly. Much interesting info has been revealed, which is the very special and invaluable purpose and function of these boards, and I applaud your interest in finding an answer to the puzzle. It is not a new puzzle, by any stretch of the imagination, as every one of us has had all sorts of mysterious parts and guns over the years. What has changed form many years ago is the fact that we now have hundreds of private owners with dedicated experience with hundreds of different types of MGs, and a passion for researching the history of these guns. In my opinion, along with this goes the imperative of skepticism and a constant need for verifiable, documented proof. Nothing else will suffice, at least for me, if the history is to mean anything of value.
For too many years MG writers and researchers merely passed along all the old myths about MGs, which could never be tested against the guns themselves, simply because access to MGs has always been extremely limited and heavily controlled for all but a very few. Fortunately that has come to an end since so many of us have the guns and the experience to finally put down many of these myths. Iinertia is and has been rampant with the institutionalized soources of Mg information. A case in point is Aberdeen rpoving Grounds Museum. They have some fabulous MGs, which have been on display for many years, but many of their IDs are wrong, but despite numerous requests by those who actually know the information and even own the same types of guns, they just do not change the info cards. This is not uncommon!
Little is documented with respect to the manufacture, use and post-military history of most MGs, although there has been a lot of good research over the years mining what is available. Add to that, the mostly completely invisible paths of use and abuse taken by most MGs before arriving in the US, from manufacture to import. If there is anything that is evident, broadly speaking, it is that most MGs moved around a great deal from arsenal to arsenal, storage depot to storage depot, army to army, country to country, with all sorts of other types of users in between. Further, many MGs were altered or rebuilt with stores of parts acquired from the factory, battlefield pickups, militarily acquired arsenals, commercial sources and other means. What we collect is the refuse of war, which we have now elevated to the status of industrial art and we have innumerable questions about just exactly what we now possess. Most MGs come from this swamp of the history histopry of war.
The first time I ever wondered about where an MG came from was driving with my family, as a ten year old, north through eastern NY state returning to Vermont. This was probably 1952 or 1953. There was a sled mounted MG08 by the side of a driveway entrance with a mailbox strapped on top of the front of the jacket. I can see it today in my minds eye. After repeatedly begging my father to stop, we did turn around and go back to talk with the homeowner. I was buzzing with questions, but the owner knew just about nothing about the gun, except that his father had obtained it somewhere and he'd made a mailbox stand out of it. He didn't even know what country it came from or what model it was. I was really crestfallen, having expected all sorts of exotic and romantic info and hopefuly stories. It was frustrating, and I remember feeling that there was a lot more than met the eye and really wanted to know as much as I could find out about that gun and others. Other circumstances conspired to push me into buying DEWATs a few years later, but the curiosity about the story behind the MGs remained. Of course, I am still frustrated by so much missing information, as are lots of other MG addicts, and I am still fascinated by new information and history as it is revealed.
Of course, it may not appear so, but, I am on your side in your search for info and wish you the best of luck. However, I have a large supply of monkeywrenches and have no compunction about using them to help insure that the info that we pass along is accurate and verifiable. We only serve oursleves by maintaining a high standard of proof, anyway.....end of ramble.
Bob
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Yeah its one of those things... we want to see it as correct and we look for the answers to confirm our wants. Sometimes this pans out but most of the time, its what we didn't want.
I have a MG08/15 coming my way with a serial number of SI4XXXa (X being numbers I am not giving). Now it could be that the German army stamped that "SI" and I have a one of a kind serial number. But most likely it was stamped post war for some odd reason. We will see but my want for it to be original goes against the likely hood of a one of a kind.
I knew someone who has "LUFT" in front of MG08/15 and the gun looked like a LMG08/15 (Aircraft gun). Of course he wanted it to be original and it took me several emails to show that it was a old post WWI conversion. It even had original LMG parts on it which are extremely rare. However they were bolted in the wrong position so that action would never have worked.
So we have to look at the Jap Gun and see what is more likely, that they cover was put on post war to replace a commonly broken wooden cover or that you go one of the very few guns that has only one German made part on it. It could be, however its not likely.
There also becomes a point in history where it does not matter. At this point there is a fairly small chance to prove the cover is original. So original or not, it will be considered by history a replacement. I have this same problem with German MG08 waterjacket front armor. There are so many repros and so many what I think are original unmarked pieces out there, that I will not buy any of them for more than repro prices. Unless marked, I consider it a repro because I can not tell the difference (on the internet) and its to easy to fake. I have a piece thats unmarked and I am 99% sure is original but I am not spending big money on anything without a markers mark in the correct area with all the features that I think are correct!
You always know when its not correct, you get that little sinking feeling in the back of your stomach! Try as you might, eventually I pretty much always prove to myself that my fears are correct!
PLUS... what is the likelyhood the Germans would bother suppling receiver covers to Japan when they could use the room for something else... lets face it, unless it came on a gun, there is no way the Germans would have wasted room on a part like this. It would be like finding WWII German ammo loaded in your Jap drum. It could be that the Germans sent some ammo over BUT I would guess it was put there post War...
Bottom line... you have an awesome gun that probably needs a replacement wood receiver cover... BFD... I will take it any day! If I was you I would try and get a repro made for it and keep the German cover just to be sure.
Hell... now that I think about it, I (and Bob) might know a guy in Texas that might be willing to sell you one off a Jap parts kit I sold him! He sold Bob the drum and I know he put a German cover on his posty for shooting.
I have a MG08/15 coming my way with a serial number of SI4XXXa (X being numbers I am not giving). Now it could be that the German army stamped that "SI" and I have a one of a kind serial number. But most likely it was stamped post war for some odd reason. We will see but my want for it to be original goes against the likely hood of a one of a kind.
I knew someone who has "LUFT" in front of MG08/15 and the gun looked like a LMG08/15 (Aircraft gun). Of course he wanted it to be original and it took me several emails to show that it was a old post WWI conversion. It even had original LMG parts on it which are extremely rare. However they were bolted in the wrong position so that action would never have worked.
So we have to look at the Jap Gun and see what is more likely, that they cover was put on post war to replace a commonly broken wooden cover or that you go one of the very few guns that has only one German made part on it. It could be, however its not likely.
There also becomes a point in history where it does not matter. At this point there is a fairly small chance to prove the cover is original. So original or not, it will be considered by history a replacement. I have this same problem with German MG08 waterjacket front armor. There are so many repros and so many what I think are original unmarked pieces out there, that I will not buy any of them for more than repro prices. Unless marked, I consider it a repro because I can not tell the difference (on the internet) and its to easy to fake. I have a piece thats unmarked and I am 99% sure is original but I am not spending big money on anything without a markers mark in the correct area with all the features that I think are correct!
You always know when its not correct, you get that little sinking feeling in the back of your stomach! Try as you might, eventually I pretty much always prove to myself that my fears are correct!
PLUS... what is the likelyhood the Germans would bother suppling receiver covers to Japan when they could use the room for something else... lets face it, unless it came on a gun, there is no way the Germans would have wasted room on a part like this. It would be like finding WWII German ammo loaded in your Jap drum. It could be that the Germans sent some ammo over BUT I would guess it was put there post War...
Bottom line... you have an awesome gun that probably needs a replacement wood receiver cover... BFD... I will take it any day! If I was you I would try and get a repro made for it and keep the German cover just to be sure.
Hell... now that I think about it, I (and Bob) might know a guy in Texas that might be willing to sell you one off a Jap parts kit I sold him! He sold Bob the drum and I know he put a German cover on his posty for shooting.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Have any of you seen this late of a type 98. I have only seen earlier examples. How about the crude grips? I dont see how anyone (including myself) can completely over rule the possibility of a weapon, because of its unstandardized build(as the Japanese are known for Especially at the latter half of the war)to be original. It is known that German guns went to japan. german imported mg 15's went to japan. How many is unknown, but sufficient quantities to test, and then to compare to the type 98 in trials. Ordnance technical report number 19 clearly mentions this. It was published o 9 Jan 1946 in japan by the office of the chief ordnance officer in tokyo japan. I realize that the majority of type 98's had wooden covers, but i also have seen evidnece that there were bakelite covers. If the pictured weapon is in fact an mg 15, then why go through the rouble of writing type98 an obscure highly unknown weapon at the time. I believe that the picture is vintage, and is bakelite covered. I believe the Department of the Navy got it right, after all they had there stuff together in 1946 when the previous report number 19 was published. were the japanese wooden stocks marked? were the german wooden stocks marked?
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Good question. I don't recall with mine, it's sitting in Bob's house now, maybe he can look? ;-)sbl11 wrote:Were the japanese wooden stocks marked?
It was, though, pretty damn crude and ugly. Bamboo wood, IIRC. Here's a picture-
Probably, though interestingly, the German ones I have seen in the old MOD Pattern Room, and the Imperial in London all were commercially marked by Krieghoff; seems I recall that they definitively dropped the wood prior to the Battle of Britain which would have been late '39-early '40 period. Here are pictures of a couple of neat things in regards to that.sbl11 wrote:Were the german wooden stocks marked?
The receiver markings on the commercial marked Krieghoff gun. Commercial markings only, not marked 'fzs' anywhere, dated 1937 as I recall.
Here's is some interesting MG-15 wood. Again, it is commercially marked, the unique stock, and no one on either side of the ocean has seen anything like it anywhere else, or can fathom out why it was made. Though a well known commercial firm made it, it remains a mystery. It is on gun that bears a relatively early date. This gun is here in the USA and belongs to an acquaintance of mine and Bob's.
And while not quite in the same line of discussion, here is some VERY unique "MG-15" wood to ponder about. This a Zeiss-IKON 'Lichtbild-MG MBK 1000' camera gun, used for aerial gunnery training as an exact scale model of the MG-15. Note the wood stocks, etc. (this gun belongs to an very advanced collector in the USA).
...lots of interesting tangents we can head off on when looking at these receiver covers, Huh? ;-)
-TomH
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
Very nice-maybe the camera gun was where they came up with the idea for the water cooled 15! 
Talk about another variant that little is known about!
As to the removal of the rear retainer (I can't find my copy of the manual,so I don't know the real word.I am sure i will find out!) if you remove the internals,you will relieve the tension on the small toothed part,I believe. You may want to use a thin punch and tap it through the hole in the rear.The small gear is held by two pins in a slot,and is tapered.You may be able to loosen it that way. If you had to drill the 'pins',you would not come anywhere near the threads.The bakelite is 0.317 ' thick at that point.The next section of metal is 0.165.Still not near the threads.OOPS-just saw where Bob suggested the punch!
I used a piece of flat stock lengthwise as a screwdriver,it was easier to conteol,and after a while,the cover came off.
As for the availlability of guns and parts,my father has two old rolling block rifles he bought off the docks from a guy named Sam Cummings in the early 50s.
He was tied up next to the ship with a load of war surplus from Europe.That guy had everything.Wonder what ever became of him.... ---bil
Talk about another variant that little is known about! As to the removal of the rear retainer (I can't find my copy of the manual,so I don't know the real word.I am sure i will find out!) if you remove the internals,you will relieve the tension on the small toothed part,I believe. You may want to use a thin punch and tap it through the hole in the rear.The small gear is held by two pins in a slot,and is tapered.You may be able to loosen it that way. If you had to drill the 'pins',you would not come anywhere near the threads.The bakelite is 0.317 ' thick at that point.The next section of metal is 0.165.Still not near the threads.OOPS-just saw where Bob suggested the punch!
I used a piece of flat stock lengthwise as a screwdriver,it was easier to conteol,and after a while,the cover came off.As for the availlability of guns and parts,my father has two old rolling block rifles he bought off the docks from a guy named Sam Cummings in the early 50s.
He was tied up next to the ship with a load of war surplus from Europe.That guy had everything.Wonder what ever became of him.... ---bil
"I dream of a world where I can buy alcohol,tobacco and firearms from the same drive-up window,and use them all on the way home from work!" Dogbert
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
we have tried all of that. I feel like we are going to break it. dad is going to have it xrayed tomorrow hopefully. If there is something under the bakelite ubstructing the lossening of the endcap, it should be apparent soon.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
wow, i totally spelled obstruct wrong..haha
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
"I dont see how anyone (including myself) can completely over rule the possibility of a weapon, because of its unstandardized build(as the Japanese are known for Especially at the latter half of the war)to be original."
I think Bob and I made it very clear that we can not rule out the idea that the bakelite receiver cover is original.
"It is known that German guns went to japan. german imported mg 15's went to japan. How many is unknown, but sufficient quantities to test, and then to compare to the type 98 in trials."
It is certainly possible. Yes it could be that the Germans brought over a gun and somehow the cover ended up on your gun. Now what would you bet that this is what happened over a post war replacement? 1 to 100 or more... I mean its possible the Germans brought some extra covers for some unknown reason or that its off a German gun (maybe damaged) but what is the are the chances compared to a post war replacement???
"but i also have seen evidnece that there were bakelite covers."
That picture is so poor. I don't see how anyone could claim either way. Now maybe your picture is better but who knows? Its pretty far from proof unless you have it blown up larger or have another picture or something.
"I believe that the picture is vintage, and is bakelite covered. I believe the Department of the Navy got it right"
So first we must believe is vintage, then we must believe its a bakelite cover, then we must believe it was not changed after captured and repaired with German cover, then we must believe the department of the navy got it right... I would not bet on this. Far from proof.
But look, you are going to believe what you want to believe, that is clear. You have a great gun I hope you prove your case but you are going to need more than this picture! Do some more research and try and find some more proof. Its like finding that really pitted rifle at a gun show and the guy claims some German was killed with it and his dead body was laying on it and the blood ran all over it and pitted it. Yeah it could be... or it could have sat in a wet basement for 50 years.... what are you guessing?
I think Bob and I made it very clear that we can not rule out the idea that the bakelite receiver cover is original.
"It is known that German guns went to japan. german imported mg 15's went to japan. How many is unknown, but sufficient quantities to test, and then to compare to the type 98 in trials."
It is certainly possible. Yes it could be that the Germans brought over a gun and somehow the cover ended up on your gun. Now what would you bet that this is what happened over a post war replacement? 1 to 100 or more... I mean its possible the Germans brought some extra covers for some unknown reason or that its off a German gun (maybe damaged) but what is the are the chances compared to a post war replacement???
"but i also have seen evidnece that there were bakelite covers."
That picture is so poor. I don't see how anyone could claim either way. Now maybe your picture is better but who knows? Its pretty far from proof unless you have it blown up larger or have another picture or something.
"I believe that the picture is vintage, and is bakelite covered. I believe the Department of the Navy got it right"
So first we must believe is vintage, then we must believe its a bakelite cover, then we must believe it was not changed after captured and repaired with German cover, then we must believe the department of the navy got it right... I would not bet on this. Far from proof.
But look, you are going to believe what you want to believe, that is clear. You have a great gun I hope you prove your case but you are going to need more than this picture! Do some more research and try and find some more proof. Its like finding that really pitted rifle at a gun show and the guy claims some German was killed with it and his dead body was laying on it and the blood ran all over it and pitted it. Yeah it could be... or it could have sat in a wet basement for 50 years.... what are you guessing?
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
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I have another question, has anyone seen any japanese made drum loading devices? I totally agree any part on any gun that is not serialized to that gun can not be considered original to that gun. THAT LIKE MY ASSUMPTIONS, ISNT GOOD HISTORY, AND WOULD BE ASSUMING WAY TOO MUCH. UNLESS THERE IS A PICTURE OF A JAPANESE AIRMAN HOLDING THE TYPE 98 IN A WAY THAT TO SHOW A NEWSPAPER AS WELL AS A BAKELITE COVER AND THE INSCRIPTION OF THE TYPE 98RECIEVER, THEN THERE IS NOT SUFFIECENT PROOF. That being said, since the germans made wooden stocks, how can we be sure that a Japanese type 98 was brought back to the U.S. with a broken rear and was replaced by a German wooden one. Unless they are marked, the same problem exists in either case. My point is that the If we agree that the Japanese did not have the tooling, and there are no known jap drum winders, then they must have imported a (Try a different word.)-ton of them to stock japanese squadrons carrying type 98s. Doesn't seem to unlikely that other material would have been transferred. By the way, my gun was xrayed and there were no pins in place. I will upload pics of xray later just as a curiousity.
-seth
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
One thing I think that is getting glossed over here is that the discussion of German parts making their way to Japan via submarine freighting is too narrow.
Remember, Germany had three full years of being at War (1939-1941) before the Japanese faced any sort of serious Embargo or meaningful trade restrictions imposed by US/Allied forces after December 1941. Plenty of time to send surface shipping.
Also, the MG-15 was CERTAINLY in its full decendency within the Luftwaffe, as a front-line armament at least, by the end of the Battle of Britain in the late summer of 1940......active plans for replacement had been started even before that.....so there was probably a strong willingness to transfer large scale help for this weapon long before Japan attacked the US in December of '41.
If you can ascertain more of the timeline of the overall technology transfer issue, you will probably gain some footing for arguing the scale of the German guns + parts deliveries. Same goes for the other known parts of he German A/C gun transfers.
Remember, Germany had three full years of being at War (1939-1941) before the Japanese faced any sort of serious Embargo or meaningful trade restrictions imposed by US/Allied forces after December 1941. Plenty of time to send surface shipping.
Also, the MG-15 was CERTAINLY in its full decendency within the Luftwaffe, as a front-line armament at least, by the end of the Battle of Britain in the late summer of 1940......active plans for replacement had been started even before that.....so there was probably a strong willingness to transfer large scale help for this weapon long before Japan attacked the US in December of '41.
If you can ascertain more of the timeline of the overall technology transfer issue, you will probably gain some footing for arguing the scale of the German guns + parts deliveries. Same goes for the other known parts of he German A/C gun transfers.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
There is something going on with that gun in the picture. It looks like the rear of the cover is slotted or something. I also don't really see the buldge on the left side of the Bakelite cover. However the bottom looks like the bakelite. However thats a scan of a scan or something like that... Maybe if you could get a good picture you could tell more but I think there is something else going on like it was cut for training reasons or something???
You should be able to tell German wood from Jap wood as Jap wood is very different looking. So even without a mark, it should be fairly easy to tell... I would think.
"One thing I think that is getting glossed over here is that the discussion of German parts making their way to Japan via submarine freighting is too narrow."
I am not sure what you mean by narrow, but I seriously doubt Germans were wasting space on a U-Boat with MG15 receiver covers. Actually I am about 99.99% sure that did not happen. U-Boats are small as crap and thats not something you would send when it can be made in Japan.
"Remember, Germany had three full years of being at War (1939-1941) before the Japanese faced any sort of serious Embargo or meaningful trade restrictions imposed by US/Allied forces after December 1941. Plenty of time to send surface shipping."
Ha... Well Japan might have been able to receive a ship, but there was almost no shipping cargo out of Germany past England and even if there was a bit, I doubt MG15 covers would have made the cut... We are reaching here! Maybe they send a plane full? Maybe the Russians let some go on the transiberian railway... I mean you can not prove it did not happen but really...
Anything is possible but the what are the chances??? Its about 100000000 to 1 that its a post war replacement rather than some part shipped half way around the world in the time of war on a U-Boat. If we were talking a Jet engine... yeah maybe but a MG15 receiver cover!?!? Remember if you are shipping things half war around the war in the time of war, you are not sending old stock that can easily be reproduced in the place you are shipping it too.
I think the only real idea that makes any sense is that its a part off a gun sent for helping the Japs tool up to produce the gun. However the its still about zero chance because why not just leave it on a MG15? Then you have to figure out WHY a MG15 cover was removed from a MG15 and used as a replacement part.
Hell anything is possible but the more I think about it, the more it seems like dreaming. When it doubt the easiest answer is usually the correct one. Its mostly likely a Post War replacement... I say 98% chance.
You should be able to tell German wood from Jap wood as Jap wood is very different looking. So even without a mark, it should be fairly easy to tell... I would think.
"One thing I think that is getting glossed over here is that the discussion of German parts making their way to Japan via submarine freighting is too narrow."
I am not sure what you mean by narrow, but I seriously doubt Germans were wasting space on a U-Boat with MG15 receiver covers. Actually I am about 99.99% sure that did not happen. U-Boats are small as crap and thats not something you would send when it can be made in Japan.
"Remember, Germany had three full years of being at War (1939-1941) before the Japanese faced any sort of serious Embargo or meaningful trade restrictions imposed by US/Allied forces after December 1941. Plenty of time to send surface shipping."
Ha... Well Japan might have been able to receive a ship, but there was almost no shipping cargo out of Germany past England and even if there was a bit, I doubt MG15 covers would have made the cut... We are reaching here! Maybe they send a plane full? Maybe the Russians let some go on the transiberian railway... I mean you can not prove it did not happen but really...
Anything is possible but the what are the chances??? Its about 100000000 to 1 that its a post war replacement rather than some part shipped half way around the world in the time of war on a U-Boat. If we were talking a Jet engine... yeah maybe but a MG15 receiver cover!?!? Remember if you are shipping things half war around the war in the time of war, you are not sending old stock that can easily be reproduced in the place you are shipping it too.
I think the only real idea that makes any sense is that its a part off a gun sent for helping the Japs tool up to produce the gun. However the its still about zero chance because why not just leave it on a MG15? Then you have to figure out WHY a MG15 cover was removed from a MG15 and used as a replacement part.
Hell anything is possible but the more I think about it, the more it seems like dreaming. When it doubt the easiest answer is usually the correct one. Its mostly likely a Post War replacement... I say 98% chance.
Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated
plenty of ships traveled to and from germany to asia, it wasn't until 1943 that the germans stopped all transport of materials to asia and the pacific via surface navy and exclusively used submarines. Many flights went to japanese held territory in china and manchuria. You have said yourself that the Japanese would have recieved help in construction of parts they found difficult to produce. SADDLE DRUMS BEING ONE OF THEM! Shipments by train were also a possiblity in 1939 as Germany still had ties with the soviets and the transsiberian railway extended all the way to the pacifc down into korea. Japanese technicians were brought to Germany in reviewing the machine gun before purchase was conducted of the license. I can garantee they did not overlook the bakelite covers. I have provided two pictures of type 98 machine guns with bakelite, one of which is a translation from Japanese. How much more proof does someone need to be sure that the Japanese military gain access to bakelite material. For god sakes they were sending electronic switches for use in mg151/20's imported. Dumb (Try a different word.) was traded. It doesnt make sense to tool up and make just 5,000 guns in 5-6 years time either. Any steps that could increase production would have taken place, whether that means a box of bakelite parts of not, i dont know. But drums and winders probably! and until actual documentation turns up, pictures and accounts of people who have seen tons of machine guns are all we have. It just seems funny that they tend to disagree. Everyone has there history in their heads, anything that disturbs that is not taken well. I mean who can honestly say that german parts were not shipped to japan, when they are known to have been, and further completely ignore evidence based solely on the fact that they don't think it was likely. If you remember correctly that Japanese did a bunch of moronic stuff. folding wire into monopods, attaching aircraft sights to type 98 rifles, were just a few of the retarded steps they took in weapons design. Some general made the call, and the armory provided what they could. What is clear from the Ordnance Technical intelligence report number 19 is that the japanese continued to study possible way to cut weight and improve the design of their aircraft guns. The type 98 was mentioned in this multiple times.
-seth
-seth