Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

By sbl11 at 2010-10-25

By sbl11 at 2010-10-25
By sbl11
By sbl11 at 2010-10-25 at 2010-10-25
By sbl11 at 2010-10-25
By sbl11 at 2010-10-25


This is my gun(gun in black and white appears to have been captured with a bakelite rear. The endcap will do come off and seems to be pinned, possibly under the resin filled holes where the mold for the bakelite was filled. It is all matching with an original nagoya drum. there also appears to be a small weimar eagle proof on the bakelite. The owner before me had it since 1981. He knew nothing about it, and said he left it in storage since 1981. It was a dewatt, but now has been reactivated. the bolt was tack welded to the rear, but done very lightly making re-watting a 3 minute job with a dremill tool. maybe could use a little more grinding to rid the yellowish brass color of the weld that is left. But, it is very odd as many people believe that the Japanese only used wood vice bakelite. The weimar eagle proof would make one think it was a recent parts kit add, but we can get the screw off, and prior to 1981 i dont believe too many spare mg-15 parts were floating around. Also notice the late war grips.

[bmg17a1]

Endcap unscrews, but a thin punch must be inserted into the hole to push inwards the small ratchet disc which then diesengages it from the inside ratchet teeth of the cap. The ratchet system is an anti-vibration device to keep the cap on.....
During the seventies and eighties there were lots of parts around for all sorts of MGs. Not in the quantities that have been available in the last twenty years or so, but there were quite a few dealers and individuals with large stashes of parts. R.J. Perry comes ot mnd, from who I bought a lot of unusual stuff including Mg15 drums for $10 apiece.There would have been no problem to find parts for German Mg15s to replace broken wooden receiver covers on the T98s and other missing or damaged parts. Jap MGs during those years were considered junk of the lowest order, and there were a lot of them for sale, quite cheap. However, the MG15/T98 does need othave th receiver cover on it!!

Bob Naess

[sbl11]

we have tried to remove the cap, and have had an expert look at it. We have tried to insert a punch to break the connection of the locking washer, but it wont budge. I have bought two parts kits from ima and both endcaps i have removed. So, there isn't a step that i am missing to my knowledge in removing the endcap screws. So, how do you explain the picture of the captured gun in the black and white photo. I has a bakelite cover and is clearly recorded as a type 98. the germans early on used wooden covers, and imported tooling to make the mg15 in japan, so why would it be odd to find german proofs on Japanese guns manufactured on german tooling, especially when it was made in a cast where the proof would have alread have been incorporatd in the design, not a latter proof stamp. The bakelite has scaring from when it was accidentally heat during the dewatt welding. So, the cover has been in place since the dewatting took place. Registered Dewatt would have had to be dewatted prior to 1968. And while japanese stuff was considered junk, the german stuff was valued. I just don't see spare german parts being available this early, when it was still legal to own a live machine gun and the importation of parts kits non existent.
-seth labak

[TactAdv]

Nice gun, Seth!

Now that I see these pictures....I see what you mean about the rear cover. I don't recall in any of the German parts I have, seeing those little round "plugs" there like your cover has......but that doesn't mean much. There were many different companies that made those housings and that may have been merely the chosen location for placing the sprues from the injection gates for the cope of the mold for that MFGR, as there was quite a bit of freedom allowed in how the end-product was achieved as that permitted the widest possible potential group of manufacturing candidates to be included in the strategic reserve of manufacturing sources as allowing proprietary methods for individual equipment and existing factory set-ups did not thus disqualify any potential factory, per se.

The marking is not clear, nor easy to read, as you indicate but certainly looks 'German', as opposed to anything of Japanese origin, and does resemble more than anything else, the official military-property stamp- the simplified, common "Reichsadler" stempel. (In any event, it would not be a Weimar Republic marking as the MG-15 was not even a gleam in anyone's official eye until long after the Republic had been overthrown(1935), and the NAZI's were quite quick and efficient in obliterating all symbologies of the former Government debuting almost overnight and completely developed their own standard, 'Die Hoheitszeichen des deutschen Reichs', of which the weapons acceptance/property stamps were one branch. The Reichsadler stempel was a very simplified marking purposely made suitable for being direct-struck on equipment.) Your marking seems to be missing a good portion of the whole thing, and they were also usually/commonly seen accompanied with the associated waffenAmt stempel (waA), which I don't see any evidence of here.....so, it's probably going to remain a mystery.

One possibility remains though for an effective identification as to origin of that part; The Germans never called that material 'bakelite', but rather "Kunststoff" (lit. "plastic"). Kunststoffe production, as an industry, was tightly controlled and under the auspices of the official governmental agency known as the 'Staatliches MaterialprüfungsAmt', and one of the strict requirements for military production was that EVERY article made for the military from kunststoff was required to be marked via a molded-in stamp, known or abbreviated as the 'MPD' stempel. This 'MPD' stempel was a stylized, standardized, and completely encoded marking that when decoded, provided full disclosure as to where and by whom it was made. It is visible on virtually EVERY item made form kunststoff. It looks like the capital letters 'M' & 'D' overlain with 2 or 3 other small marks interwoven, providing the code. With the 'MPD' marking, identification is rather easy in most cases as there exists a rather comprehensive understanding of the codes today; However, minus the 'MPD' marking........the chances of it being of German production plummet dramatically as since the 'MPD' code marking was required for ALL military equipment, it is almost impossible to think that such a piece as a prominent weapons component would escape this.

These 'MPD' marks were frequently hidden on undersides, backsides, etc., of articles so dis-assembly will likely be necessary to investigate. If you don't find one, you may well have a Japanese production item, though no firm guarantees from that alone. If you DO find a 'MPD' stamp, let me know what it says and I can likely tell you who made it (in Germany).

One can only decipher so much from such a gun as the physical evidence allows.

-TomH

[sbl11]

thanks tom,

That damn endcap screw will only rotate 1/8" in either direction before jambing. We have tried and tried to remove it, and have had no success as with the parts kits we have bought. We had actually hammered away with a punch in the hole to dislodge the serated locking washer, and then applied the screwdriver. Unless for some reason the locking washers hare not engaging on the parts kits when the caps are fulling fastened down, as removing them is easy, i am pretty sure there is no need to both depress and twist the endcap on the type 98 at the same time. which was also tried with the same outcome of 1/8" turns. and even still if it was locking in place, i dont believe there would be this much give way in the rotation before the serations made contact and stopped the unscrewing. I know what i just typed probably wasn't too clear, but what it come down to is that cap is not like the parts kit caps in the manner of take down being impossible whereas the parts kits are easily unscrewed(with out any pressure on the locking washer). I believe i know where to find the markings you are looking for, and i have also seen on the parts kits octogan( possibly hexagon) factory proofs on the outside on the bakelite and marking on the forward inside lip of the bakelite next to the rotating safety, unseen with out first removing. in a way i hope to god it is pinned, it would prove that the baeklite was original to the factory in japan, whereas the lack of pins could still cause concern for originality in the part to the weapon. The pins would be the only proof unless otherwise japanese marked inside.

-seth

[TactAdv]

That damn endcap screw will only rotate 1/8" in either direction before jambing. We have tried and tried to remove it, and have had no success

-seth

You need to X-ray it.....seriously.....that would reveal any extra pins, etc.

Barring that, send it to Bob. ;-)

[Bil]

I had one of the 15s that wouldn't unscrew-like yours,it would move just a little.Working at it and spraying lubricant finally got it out,it was just a bunch of crud in the teeth.On the German receivers I have,the 'pins' are just parts of the mold that were transfered,maybe injection ports,or alignment pins for mold halves. The MPD markings are in the front of the kunstoff (Bakelite) piece,on the flared section,in recessed rectangles.I also have the small eagle in the same location. More info on kunstoff manufacturing and marking is in the book Kunstoffe A Collectors Guide to German WW II Plastics and their Markings.
A Schiffer book,by W.Darrin Weaver.Soon to be a major motion picture! ---bil

[bmg17a1]

Seth writes:

>I just don't see spare German parts being available this early, when it was still legal to own a live machine gun and the importation of parts kits non existent.<

Quite the contrary, there were all sorts of MGs, and parts coming into the US from the middle fifties on by Service Armament in the east, Hy Hunter, and half a dozen other importers in the west. The quantities of MGs imported for the commercial DEWAT businesses in the middle fifties were huge and included parts as well. Numrich Arms had crates and crates of parts for all sorts of MGs during those years and through the sixties and seventies. Again R.J. Perry had lots of interesting MG parts as did J. Curtis Earl and other dealers and importers. There were piles of disassembled Stens in the late sixties, as well as MP40s, Lanchesters, but they weren't called kits. There was not much demand for MG parts and prices were quite low, but there were parts around for all sorts of MGs.I bought a number of DEWATs in 1956 and 1957, and had opportunities to visit Numrich Arms several times in the late fifties. For a young teen gun addict it was heaven!! My first legal MGs were bought in 1970 and continued for many years, and still does, but I was always looking for parts, writing to dealers and collectors, following ads in Shotgun News, going to shows and immersing myself in the newly expanding world of MGs. It was quite easy and cheap to find pretty much anything that one wanted.
I haven't seen any evidence that the Japanese used the same synthetic materials that were used by the Germans, and there would not be any German waffens or makers IDs on Japanese made parts. The Japs copied German and US MG designs, but used their own markings.
Having reactivated quite a few T98/T1s, as well as many dozens of other Jap MGs, quite a variety of homemade and owner made parts have show up on the guns. A few of the T98s and T1s have had non-factory wooden grips, poorly fitted and missing the grip lock, and clearly non-factory receiver covers. Several have had the German synthetic covers, too.
It would be interesting to do an FOIA on your gun to see the date and form of original registration and subsequent transfer forms. A great deal can be gleaned form this paperwork, except for personal information, of course. Not all DEWATs were done pre '68. MGs continued to be made inoperable long after that date and well into the eighties for buyers who did not want live MGs. The guns were correctly registered as live, of course, but were made inoperable. The original registration could include typical information of the time about the condition of the gun, whether it had been rendered inoperable, and sometimes how, the date of registration, whether just after the war or during the amnesty, whether it was transferred ever on a form 5 as inoperable, other transfer history, etc.
As Tom points out, the physical evidence is the most reliable and without any clear evidence of some potential 'fact", often it is not possible to know for sure.
Delving into the "hardware" is fascinating and the extensive hands-on experience of private owners of MGs, which really accelerated in the seventies and is now wodeapread, has multiplied our knowledge of all aspects of MGs beyond belief, an invaluable resource for us all. It is always worth searching......

Bob Naess

[sbl11]

I understand that while the Japanese did produce their own fully japanese copies under lincense, they also imported guns from germany. There have been examples having both german and japanese markings, and during the closing years of the war, with the need to expedite manufacture(PISTOL GRIPS: due to lack of time left plain while they could easily have used a machine to cut the grooves) german spare parts could have been fitted to the weapons. As evident in the small black and white photo, they did actually use bakelite rears(so now you have observed a captured gun documented by the U.S. military). I understand that these rears will always be questioned, but it just makes since to use material already available rather than make entirely new pieces. William Easterly( writing a book on the japanese machine guns Dragons of Fire) has mentioned that the Japanese did in fact recieve shipments of Bakelite from germany in late 1943. I do not know where this information is from, but as a strictly japanese only machine gun collector, i have to assume he has suffiecent knowledge on the material. It would be quite interesting to figure out how early the paper trail goes for my weapon, could you explain the process of figuring this out?

-seth

[sbl11]

how was the bakelite markedanyways? The example i have seen appear to have cast markings, so if they are in fact cast, the tools sent from germay (mold for the bakelite) would already have the marks incorporated in them. Why would the japanese waste the time in making a cast when the resin and mold could be a) brought over during different phases of the war where size did not play an issue or b) bring already formed parts ready for installation after the mg-15 was replace by larger caliber gun in the luffewaffe. The Japanese would not have made thier own molds, so they could have german markings.
-seth

[TactAdv]

The Japanese would not have made thier own molds, so they could have german markings.
-seth

One of the great misconceptions of the whole "Japanese copying German aircraft guns" saga is the notion that they simply plugged in the tooling and flipped the switch. ;-)

While the Germans provided complete technical details, and in cases actual parts and specific tooling, dies, and gauges, the Japs were severely handicapped in their industrial capacities in many important regards and in particular, their available metallurgy in some cases where it mattered. The Germans took full advantage of their premier positions in the arts of tooling and gauges, and in many cases their industrial alloys. Their designs reflected their industrial capabilities. The Japs OTOH, sorely lacked a lot of the advanced industrial backbone that was taken for granted in Germany and elsewhere, and so had to resort to modifying both the process and materials for what they had available, this compromise approach shows up in many areas. Some didn't really matter, some did.

The Japanese copy of the MG-131 is a perfect example; all the Jap copies were percussion fired, whereas the definitive German variants were all electrically primed and fired. Much has been suggested as to why this was so, but in the end it seems the Japanese industrial-technical capacity to produce reliable electrical primers was the culprit, despite having been given all the knowledge, and presumably tooling, to do so.

This same principle seems to exist with whole synthetic materials issue; while the Germans issued kunststoffe/plastics like water, the Japanese never seemed to have done so, at all. In the German paradigm, it is almost hard to find a mundane common item that was NOT converted to kunststoff, and yet in the Japanese realm, you NEVER commonly see synthetics used. That is more than just a casual observation here, as had the Japs had the opportunity to produce the MG-15 rear cover from synthetics, they probably would have done so with great joy. Rather, the more this topic festers in my head, the more I am tending to believe that any "bakelite"/kunststoff rear cover for the Type98/Type 1 guns had to have come from Germany, and that they just used it as an already made part. Seth, I don't think it is case where they couldn't make the molds, rather I think more likely that there simply did not exist the chemical industry capacity that was needed to produce the urea-formaldehyde forming stock.

Somebody needs to go examine a Type 98/Type 1 gun that is in Japan.

-TomH

[sbl11]

Then it comes down to the simple fact that there would be no way to prove or unprove the originality of a bakelite rear type 98 today. But, as the Department of the navy photograph in black in white above shows bakelite was used. Are the wooden rears serial numbered anywhere? If not there would be no serial numbers on the japanese used bakelite, and thus unlike the other german parts found with both german and japanese proofs and serial numbers, the bakelite would be excused having only the markings that existed on it from germany. If the wooden japanese variants are marked in some way, then one may be able to expect similar markings on the bakelite the japanese used from germany, much to the extent seen in german used barrels and other internals. What were the early grips of type 94 nambu pistols made of? it is a composite of some kind.

-seth

[bmg17a1]

Seth writes:

>There have been examples having both german and japanese markings,...<

This is very interesting. Since the Japs only cloned a few of the German MGs, which Japanese made MGs have you seen that had German markings on them? It would make sense that
German weapons purchased/acquired to test or copy, might have proof markings or inspector markings, or other types of Japanese stamps on them, but it doesn't make any sense that a Japanese manufactured clone of a German MG would have German markings. I would like to see pics of some examples for my archives.

Since we're counting angels on the head of a pin here, I'll toss some further confusion into this mix. How do we know that the gun in the pic is actually a japanese T98? I've seen pics from official sources purportedly showing 'X' when in fact the weapon is 'Y' .
Mis-identification or substitutiion of weapons was not uncommon from the thirties through the fifites in various 'official' sources.
I'm not sure how anyone can identify the receiver cover on that gun as synthetic from that pic unles there is an actual photograph available to them and other angles and closeups. The picture is extremely difficult to read and the cover could easily be made of one of the several types of wood used by the Japs. Are there other pics? Also, is there any evidence that the Japs mnade and used the rubber fired case catchers, too?
An FOIA, Freedom of Information Act, request is made by letter including the details of the type and serial number of the gun and a copy of your registration so they will know that it is legally registered to you. Only the current registrant is legally eligible to obtain this info. Just ask that you receive copies of all forms in the NFRTR (registry) relevant to that serial number. Takes about a month or so to receive back copies of the records.
I'll update this post with the address in DC where to send the request.

Bob

[sbl11]

who is to say the german did not provide them. The picture comes from Francillion's book. you are absolutely right. You have proven to me that there were no japanese copies with bakelite reciever covers. They certainly only used wood, and the german technicians bringing examples and blueprints could not have brought any spare parts. Although are know to have imported mg151/20 machine guns(all german) there is no possibility that mg-15's and spare parts were shipped as well. My gun most likely had its wood replaced.

-seth

[sbl11]

By sbl11 at 2010-10-26
By sbl11 at 2010-10-26
By sbl11 at 2010-10-26

[sbl11]

and it would make sense that parts sent to aid the japanese would have both german and then japanese proof markings. First being inspected in germany, then inspected upon arrival in japan and assembly. Tom Hoel mentioned the examples of guns with both markings, i have not personally seen any. But, parts that were hard to make could have been shipped to japan from germany(of course as the war progressed shipping went primarily to u-boats with little stowage). I could be very mistaken, but I believe that William Easterly(author of the Belgian Rattlesnake) and student of Japanese machine guns mentioned that there was a shipment of bakelite to japan from germany in late 1943. Where he found this information i am unaware. I posted a few more pictures of my gun. It is all matching, with nagoya proofs on all pieces, I took off the pistol grip and there is "W" or "M" stamped there as well.

-seth

[TactAdv]

and it would make sense that parts sent to aid the japanese would have both german and then japanese proof markings. First being inspected in germany, then inspected upon arrival in japan and assembly. Tom mentioned the examples of guns with both markings, i have not personally seen any.

Seth, I think you may well have misunderstood something; what was suggested was that guns that bore examples of parts made in each country may well have the common marks for their respective origins. Since we are talking about the rear covers, my discussion of the MPD markings, and your photo of what is quite likely a German acceptance stamp as shown, probably makes that a good bet for German markings. Since it is on your Japanese receiver, now we are looking at a gun with both markings.

What I indicated is that it is known the Japs received as War aid, complete guns in certain circumstances. Your example of the MG-151 is quite indicative.

who is to say the german did not provide them. The picture comes from Francillion's book. you are absolutely right. You have proven to me that there were no japanese copies with bakelite reciever covers. They certainly only used wood, and the german technicians bringing examples and blueprints could not have brought any spare parts.

Lastly, Seth, let me gently suggest to you here while it is quite clear you have obvious pride in your gun and your desire to definitively and accurately ascertain it's true path through history, it is almost certain you will never know the precise details in many areas; becoming defensive when Bob was providing good and well intentioned advice isn't helpful to your search for answers. Bob probably has more experience and knowledge in these areas than almost anyone else and he is only trying to show you how confounding and frustrating it is to try and pin down much of the minutiae of these events surrounding the War time production. Much of what is GENERALLY understood, and passed around the community as "fact", is instead well reasoned conjecture based upon decades of exposure to what little does exist as physical evidence and learning to draw reasonable conclusions from what is available.......there are huge gaps and the people who have spent the better part of a lifetime studying these affairs are the true experts. Bob Naess is one of those experts and what he shares with the community is worth listening to with both ears open.

-TomH

[sbl11]

Hi!,
Congrats on the Type 98!

It is known the Japanese, before assuming full production of the gun and even after, used some German parts throughout the War, most notably they continued to purchase the double-drums as they never could keep up production-wise.

It is also assumed, from examining actual wartime guns, that there were some/certain German parts used in assembly, ostensibly for the same reasons. It is not uncommon to find a Type 98/Type 1 held in Asian museums that is showing German parts installed. This seems to be limited to the small parts mostly, although there are a couple of documented guns that assuredly have German receivers (acceptance marks, etc.) that also bear Jap Arsenal primary markings. Such things are common when one country licenses production to another as there are always a certain number of host-country produced parts that are included initially as they begin assembly and familiarize themselves with the production process, and even when in full production, certain parts that they may have had trouble making may still continue to be acquired from the foreign source(s).

Now, the real trick here about the stock material is to try and determine whether or not it is original to the time of production of the rest of the gun, and if so, is it actually Jap production or German?? Two things to remember.....from the time line you state of the previous owner....it was nearly unheard of here before the Laws changed in 1986 to import machine gun parts or parts kits...so getting in any new MG-15 parts would be a hard thing to do. These guns, even real German MG-15's, are pretty uncommon here as privately held guns so that it is hard to think about that happening, replacement of a part from a "parts-kit" part as we take for granted today. I have no problem believing that assuming it original to the time of manufacture of the whole gun by the Japanese that it is of actual German origin, because in almost all cases the stock on the Japanese built gun is made form either bamboo or teak wood; I have never heard of Japanese using anything approaching the German form of what we call "bakelite" synthetic material. My best guess is that you have a German original part, as originally assembled, wholly correct to that specific ONE GUN as it was assembled originally.

There is a whole largely forgotten story on how the Germans wholesale supplied the Japanese armaments industry with everything from complete weapons, to the basic raw materials....coal, steel, copper, etc.,....via established undersea shipping lanes using larger U-boats as freighters. Entire gun making assembly lines, whole factories really, were shipped from Europe to Japan in U-boats. If you don't know, Japan licensed the production of the MG-15, MG-131, and the MG-151 aircraft guns...to name only a small portion of the arms and weapons they bought from Germany.

The date of manufacture of your gun speaks volumes about missing the latching mechanism on the grip, that was deleted as things got rougher during the later stages of the War. Same goes for the overall rougher finishes seen and the lack of detail spent on the wooden parts in general.

Your gun was DEWAT-ed in an interesting way...I have never heard of doing that...welding the bolt locked back....because of that, the recoil spring is most surely dead by now and you'll need a new one...MG-15 recoil springs are hard to find, be aware.

Sounds like a neat gun!! Any pictures you have would be enjoyable to see. I will be posting shooting video of mine after next weekends MG shoot here.

-Tom H.

[TactAdv]

a Type 98/Type 1 held in Asian museums that is showing German parts installed. This seems to be limited to the small parts mostly, although there are a couple of documented guns that assuredly have German receivers (acceptance marks, etc.) that also bear Jap Arsenal primary markings.

Seth, again, that is information in relation to early German-produced guns that arrived in Japan as foreign aid examples, that necessarily were over marked with the Japanese character-based markings.

[bmg17a1]

TactAdv writes:

>It was nearly unheard of here before the Laws changed in 1986 to import machine gun parts or parts kits...so getting in any new MG-15 parts would be a hard thing to do.<

Once again, this is not accurate. Having been involved with DEWAT MGs initially from 1956, bought from several different retailers such as Cadmus Industries and Hy Hunter in CA, two of about half a dozen different imorter/retailers out west and Numrich Arms, a couple hours from where I grew up, and having visited Numrich Arms in the late fifties, where there were tons of parts in crates to sort through, as well as having bought catalogs from many different outfits through those years, there were lots of parts around and many coming into the US. As the seventies progressed many more parts came into the US and continued to show up on the market at gunshows, and advertised through mailings. I went to the Houston gunshow in the spring of 1973 and there were boxes and boxes of MG parts along with many hundreds of MGs. R.J. Perry offered all sorts of parts as did Earl and Rexer and other dealers and individuals. Parts importation accelerated over the years, but there were always parts around, often for quite scarce MGs, and if something hard to find was needed, it could be found by asking the right guys.
What we now call 'kits" began to come into the US in the early seventies as ATF tried to design procedures for importation of MGs that could be remanufactured for registratiion and private possession. These rules were a direct result of individuals and CIIss petitioning ATF, wanting to know how to bring in guns for legal registration. Many of these guns were BMGs, 1917s and 1917A1s as well as many types of SMGs, etc. ATF required the imported MGs to be destroyed in a specific manner before they could be iimported legally.
There was MG collecting before 1968! There were a lot of dedicated MG collectors and shooters in the sixties, and dealers who had moved along with the growing MG colletor industry through the late fifites with the huge imports of MGs for DEWATing. Although parts weren't as ubiquitous by any measure as they were at the end of the century, there were plenty of parts to be had for all sorts of MGs.

Bob Naess