Potential Receiver Stampings -- Interested?

[Sledge303]

:idea: Now here's an alternative that MIGHT be cheaper and easier to make happen- why not see if you can get the cam sections (and maybe nose pieces? ) sub-contracted out and see if bringing that section to market might be any cheaper? It may still be cost prohibitive; I don't claim to know the details of stamping and die-making business. But it might be a good compromise on a part that is not readily available and the money out of that might be usable to bootstrap up the complete stampings.

There are already several sources/outfits that make the muzzle bearing. It has to be aligned and welded into the front of the demilled barrel shroud section of the receiver. They have even been offered as a "group buy" over on "Weaponeer". The CAM section alone isn't worth making (in my opinion). If you are going to stamp it out, then make the entire rear section of the receiver.

Now, question I have for you regarding the "business" aspect of this. If you have $50k-$75K to invest and know you won't see any return for about a year, would you spend it on this project? Is there something that is less risky and offers a higher yield potential? I only ask this because several times I have run into folks who are just getting started with the retail side of the "firearm industry" and they are shocked at the minimal profit margin and short return on the investment.
To me these are things to consider if you are working up a "business plan" and seeking an investor to get behind this manufacturing project.

[88comm]

Just a thought on Pelosi and her friends - with the House of Representatives and the Senate so evenly divided, it would appear that the two parties might dead lock each other. Nothing might get done or passed in the next two years. This is not such a bad thing. Maybe what we should be thinking about is '08 and getting a Republican back into office...

[Matt]

Instead of tooling up to make the receivers, why don't you guys get everyone together who would buy one and send a letter of commitment to Brian at BRP and have him run a batch on his tooling which is already manufactured. I am sure there are a few hundred guys out there who would buy one or two.

[KMURPHY]

we should make a list into a sticky and get together a bunch of dudes to make a decent and informed proposal to brian @ brp. then pending response, he could make an offer regarding estamated cost.

[Sledge303]

In my way of thinking it would be best to talk to BRP first before putting a bunch of time and effort into gathering data, names, ETC. I am sure the first thing everyone will ask is "how much"? Based on that dollar figure you can get a better idea of how many might sell.
I suspect the price will be no lower than $800. Keep in mind that BRP currently controls the market on semi-auto MG-42's. BRP probably won't be too interested in de-valuing the product. They may not be at all interested in supplying receivers for the "home builder" market.

[-M60_Gunner-]

In my way of thinking it would be best to talk to BRP first before putting a bunch of time and effort into gathering data, names, ETC. I am sure the first thing everyone will ask is "how much"? Based on that dollar figure you can get a better idea of how many might sell.
I suspect the price will be no lower than $800. Keep in mind that BRP currently controls the market on semi-auto MG-42's. BRP probably won't be too interested in de-valuing the product. They may not be at all interested in supplying receivers for the "home builder" market.

Couple that with the fact that Brian (in his own words) isn't in a rush to make these because he doesn't make hardly any profit at their "current" price.....

[KMURPHY]

so this idea seems dead as hell i guess.....

[Blanksguy]

I am coming into this discussion a little on the late-side of things......but when you are talking "business"...and what people may or may not be talked into making....their are other sides to these issues that may need to be looked at:

1: The size of the "gun-market" for SA42s and the receiver-pieces (or stampings) that would be needed....and how big is this market before "satuation-point". That point where you can not sell any more of a product unless you really lower the price......or take a loss.

2: When you talk about BRP......why would he (Brian) go into making excess receiver stampings when he knows that he will need to sell the SA42s that he has planned to build in the short-future.......and remember the "saturation-point" from #1 above. Brian is busy converting Class III weapons to look like Thompsons and other guns....which makes him more money faster than his machinest can line-up/weld/"tweek" an SA42 receiver into a working gun. He could have the "stampings" made....but if he sells to many, then he can't sell his SA42s later......correct? It is not an endless market.

3: The "economy"...interest-rates.....and the job-market.

4: What are people/collectors/investors/"speculators" holding out as far as parts/kits/DEMILed receivers waiting for the right time to let them go ?....and how many are out there that have not been built ?

There are a lot of other issues at hand other than talking Brian into making receiver-stampings. He is a busy man......and as a business, he is doing the things that make him (and BRP) the most money for time/investment/effort.
Regards,
RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[runamuk]

Have any of you guys talked to Bryan lately? I was lucky enough to get to talk to him the other day for approx 30 minutes. Bryan was nice enough to give me that much of his day and talk MG-42 stuff. I told Bryan all about the buzz on this board and he is very aware of it all and the demand for semi receivers. He said he was working on having complete rear sections on the market by December 06...Yea next month, and complete ones by early to mid 07. He said he has a number of pre stamped sheets ready to be worked and will come in a short time. He is a very busy man and said unfortunatly he has to be on the phone alot but of course is trying to do his best to get things rolling. As for his philosophy on selling to kit builders and complete gun buyers......he would rather sell and cater to the kit builder. The kit builder has a better appreciation for the gun and a better knowledge of how it ticks. It happends to often that some folks go out and buy a complete gun that has no idea how the thing works and tears it up and guess who gets the blame....BRP so they may find a board like this one, sign up and unfortunatly trash BRP. I am definitly not saying anything about anybody who buys a complete gun but the scenerio could happen if Bryan dicided not to warranty a gun that went out the door perfectly sound. I think every one knows there are those that start feeding these things without studying them first. Bryan said it is coming so I am as well as everyone else on this board am looking foward to it because I am in it for at least 2 of them. I beleive we should be patient till the end of December and see what turns up......thats it in a nut shell.....Kev Mac

[gdmoore28]

Kev Mac,

Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that Brian is aware of the need for receivers and is working to fill it. I think the question that burns in my mind is, naturally . . . how much? I think he prices his two rear receiver halves at just under $400. Did he give you any indication as to price?

One member noted that he thought a "fair" price for a complete receiver would be in the range of $400. When I first started exploring building a 42 I have to admit that I expected that surely one could complete a receiver (empty) for under $500. I had been checking out the prices of repro receivers for other guns --- now realize that the 42 receiver is a vastly more sophisticated and complex affair.

Maybe $900 -- or more? -- is just the price it takes to buy a repro complete receiver. If so, I'll just have to start saving up if I can't catch a good sectioned rear.

Toolman is going to check out the prospects of manufacturing the stampings. If it's not feasible, he'll have nothing invested but his time. Even if the decision were made today to produce the pieces, he says it would take in excess of thirty weeks to engineer the die.

Here's hoping Brian will surprize us with receiver configurations that are affordable to the average hobbiest. If so, I'll be needing three in all.

GDM

[BELTLEAD]

Brian was selling the rear halves for $100 a year ago,but he wasn't selling the front halves seperate back then.I had a set of rear halves that I sold on Gunbroker for around $200.

[tomcatshaas]

Have any of you guys talked to Bryan lately? I was lucky enough to get to talk to him the other day for approx 30 minutes. Bryan was nice enough to give me that much of his day and talk MG-42 stuff. I told Bryan all about the buzz on this board and he is very aware of it all and the demand for semi receivers. He said he was working on having complete rear sections on the market by December 06...Yea next month, and complete ones by early to mid 07. He said he has a number of pre stamped sheets ready to be worked and will come in a short time. He is a very busy man and said unfortunatly he has to be on the phone alot but of course is trying to do his best to get things rolling. As for his philosophy on selling to kit builders and complete gun buyers......he would rather sell and cater to the kit builder. The kit builder has a better appreciation for the gun and a better knowledge of how it ticks. It happends to often that some folks go out and buy a complete gun that has no idea how the thing works and tears it up and guess who gets the blame....BRP so they may find a board like this one, sign up and unfortunatly trash BRP. I am definitly not saying anything about anybody who buys a complete gun but the scenerio could happen if Bryan dicided not to warranty a gun that went out the door perfectly sound. I think every one knows there are those that start feeding these things without studying them first. Bryan said it is coming so I am as well as everyone else on this board am looking foward to it because I am in it for at least 2 of them. I beleive we should be patient till the end of December and see what turns up......thats it in a nut shell.....Kev Mac

That is very interesting because I emailed Brian this past Sunday on this subject and got this for a reply.
"Brian,

Will you be making anymore 42 receiver stampings and offering partial assembled front shrouds?"

Brians reply.... "Not anytime soon"

I guess his definition of "soon" is not the same as mine

[KMURPHY]

if dec 06 is for reel that would be sweet

[gdmoore28]

BELTLEAD--

$100 for the set of rear recvr stampings is exactly the range that sounds reasonable. It seems that if they could be sold for that one year ago, they could be sold for that now, seeing that the initial cost of dies is continually being repaid as stampings are sold.

'Course we're talking about the laws of supply and demand, and if I could sell the stampings for $375 I would do it, too. Take into consideration that dies do wear out and have to eventually be replaced, inflation, increased cost of steel, etc., etc.. and costs increases are inevitable. But have costs risen almost 400%?

Doesn't matter. Smart business men charge what the market will bear and make profit wherever the opportunity arises.

I guess the prices of these pieces won't look so bad a year from now when the Dems outlaw them completely, and remaining pieces go for $2000 or more.

I guess at that point we'll all have to become expert metalsmiths who can fabricate the receivers from scratch.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know someone who has fabricated their reciever from scratch? I'd love to see photos.

GDM

[041x]

That is very interesting because I emailed Brian this past Sunday on this subject and got this for a reply.
"Brian,

Will you be making anymore 42 receiver stampings and offering partial assembled front shrouds?"

Brians reply.... "Not anytime soon"

I guess his definition of "soon" is not the same as mine


[/quote]

I think he has about 200 of them sitting at his shop so I don't think he would want to make any more of them.

[041x]

BELTLEAD--


I guess at that point we'll all have to become expert metalsmiths who can fabricate the receivers from scratch.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know someone who has fabricated their reciever from scratch? I'd love to see photos.

GDM

Yes I do know of someone on this board that has made one from scratch we'll see if he will chime in.

[toolman_556]

I guess I just don't get it. Demil 3 cut used receivers you have to spend countless hours welding and grinding back into a receiver are going for $250+ in the for sale section of this board right now. Every one that pops up sells in a day or 2. Yet you only want to pay $100 for a rear half in new stampings? If you count your time as an expense you would have way over $400.00 in a 3 cut demil. The time invested to finish an 80% stamping would be a great deal less, hence worth more money IMHO. Face it, unless you get serius volume, and I mean 10,000 annual or more, the idea of getting a receiver like this for that money is out. You are not talking ar-15's where literally thousands are manufactured each week. The tooling for this type of tool is not build and forget. Draw dies like this have a maintenance cost per part. Setup parts, repolishing, qc gaging, it all costs money to get and maintain. You are not talking cheap A36 HRS either. This will be a draw quality premium steel or it will split and crack in the form. Draw quality prices do not always follow the cheap low carbon/ low alloy price guidelines as the elements to make it draw sweet also make it worth more money. And volume comes back into play as they do not make a tremendous amount of draw quality steel in odd gauges. I would not be surprised if you had to buy a 20,000 lb heat of draw quality to even get the steel.

[runamuk]

Sorry....Havnt been by a terminal in a couple of days but....I did ask Bryan about price abd he said it would depend on what kind of time it would take to produce it but said he did want to keep it real price wise. He also said he wanted the receiver to be parts ready with rails installed and all. Everone think positive and wish hard.....Kev Mac.....Texas

[KMURPHY]

well......i will be holding a vigil

[KATZBALGER]

You all know that Brian doesn't actually fabricate these stampings himself, don't you?

My understanding is that he contracted a firm in Chicago that normally shits out parts for the automobile sector. In fact, that's why he claims that he had so many problems with the welding and allignment of the first batch of recs, since the folks up there didn't know wtf they were doing.

And appearently a 100 ton press isn't something you can get from Harbor Freight.

FWIW