m76 reweld question turns to "once a mg always a mg po

How not to see club fed.
none123

m76 reweld question turns to "once a mg always a mg po

Post by none123 »

I saw this last night..over on gunco *EDIT(there is no new atf info here just a argument over m76 rewelding...just thought some might find the opnions stated as facts intresting)*

http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread. ... 367&page=1


vulcan762


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your incorrect on No. 2 in this instance. Once the receiver has been properly de-milled it is no longer a firearm or regulated part by any definition. It is now SCRAP METAL and can be welded up as a new semi-auto receiver. AND if done so here in the U.S. the receiver will count as a U.S. part.

I also agree that I dont think you have enough parts to weld it up though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
No. 1, you don't get all the receiver pieces.

No.2, you "weld up the auto sear hole" and you still have a contraband machine gun, no way around that.

ORF is the only game in town for the receiver.


Yesterday, 11:46 PM #18
Templar


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I have to ask you about the rewelded M14 receivers that MK Industries tried...and ended up on ATF charges.

Once a machine gun, always a machine gun, that's why ATF confiscated all those FAL receiver pieces with the full auto ejector block in them a couple of years ago.
__________________
" Today, 12:10 AM #19
grasshopper


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, here is another dumb question, how do people weld up MG34,42,53 receivers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
Then I have to ask you about the rewelded M14 receivers that MK Industries tried...and ended up on ATF charges.

Once a machine gun, always a machine gun, that's why ATF confiscated all those FAL receiver pieces with the full auto ejector block in them a couple of years ago.



Today, 12:53 AM #20
Templar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If they're just welding up the pieces then that's not going to cut it.

People build up semi auto M1919A4's with a new semi auto side plate, and semi auto receivers/80% receivers are available for the 34 and 42.
Today, 03:01 AM #22
mtdew69
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
If they're just welding up the pieces then that's not going to cut it.

People build up semi auto M1919A4's with a new semi auto side plate, and semi auto receivers/80% receivers are available for the 34 and 42.


ok? then how do you explain the approved re-welded brens?...unless you call the F/A bolt blocking bar a new part....the mg34/42 rewelds have those also



Today, 05:44 AM #23
mtdew69
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
Then I have to ask you about the rewelded M14 receivers that MK Industries tried...and ended up on ATF charges.




I belive the ATF lost the case aganst MKS (Mike Kelly) at least on the "once a machinegun always a machine gun" issue ..i do belive that got him on AWB issues though...something about a bayonet lug..the crappy thing is that the atf changed it's mind as to what was legal...

"a letter dated August 21, 1980, advised that properly destroyed M14 receivers could be remanufactured with a design that would render them semiautomatic receivers. Consequently, a number of rifles were manufactured with the remanufactured receivers by MKS in West Virginia. In 2001 BATF reversed itself and held that the receivers were those of a machine gun and seized them"


mtdew69
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mtdew69
Find More Posts by mtdew69
Add mtdew69 to Your Buddy List


Today, 06:55 AM #24
Templar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Try a different word.) it, I give up.

Go and build the damn thing like you want.

While your getting cornholed by your cell mate, I don't want to hear about it.

You can play the odds all you want with what ATF might catch you doing, but keep it off the board.
__________________
"RPG kaboom tank!"

Comrade Soldier Koverchenko
Last edited by none123 on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Blanksguy
General
General
Posts: 1434
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:33 am
Location: Bay City, Michigan

Post by Blanksguy »

none123,
Very long reading for little or no content. These are an "individual's views.......and not an "official-letter" nor an "official-determination" from the BATF.....nor from any listed "State Attorney General".....so it is only the "author's views".

The distruction (DEMILing of an MG receiver to the "standards" of scrap-metal has changed over the years......but the most recent BATF Letter that was received and posted on this web-page is good.
Basically it states that you are allowed to construct a semi-only firearm from these "scrap/DEMILed MG-pieces" of metal.........you just can not construct an MG...and then change it to a semi-only firearm.

Go back to our posted letter and read what BATF has sent to a member of this web-page.
Be safe, RichardS.

PS: As far as the M14 rewelded weapon problem and/or FAL situation......(if memory serves me correctly)......those weapons were not DEMILed to the "standard" of the day, prior to importation into the US.
none123

Post by none123 »

oh... sorry i if gave the impression that i didn't think a reweld was OK, if the atf really thought re-welded demilled scrap was a mg then there would be no approved brens....i was just posting something that i found and didn't agree with...as to the MKS m14's (according to what i found) he was found not guilty on the m14 machine gun charges..

i guess i should have posted this in the general forum
( done courtesy of your friendly neighborhood moderators)
Last edited by Drooling idiot Jan 17 2006 5:35 PM.
User avatar
gunslingerdoc
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:45 pm
Location: middle, MS

Post by gunslingerdoc »

I put this on Arfcom earlier....

Full ruling

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=dc&navby=case&no=955187a

snippits:

"Although the merits panel did not use the word "unreasonable," by pointing out that the Bureau's approach required treating identical weapons in completely different ways, it highlighted the fundamental unreasonableness of the Bureau's position. Although a brand new semiautomatic receiver may legally be possessed and transferred, under the Bureau's interpretation of the Firearms Act, a semiautomatic receiver that has been modified into a machinegun receiver and then restored to its original semiautomatic state may not be possessed or transferred, even though its reconfiguration makes it indistinguishable from a brand new semiautomatic. "incredible" was the word this court used to describe that result."

"The agency offers no convincing explanation, however, why this difference should lead to different procedures for removing machineguns as opposed to all other weapons from Firearms Act coverage. According to the agency, for weapons other than machineguns, removal of the features that led to the weapon's classification as a firearm suffices to remove the weapon from the Act's coverage. Firearms Enforcement Program, ATF Order 3310.4B ¶ 83(e)(2). For machinegun receivers, however, removal of the features causing their classification as machineguns does not remove them from Firearms Act coverage, and thus the Gun Control Act's prohibition. Under the agency's once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun policy, only complete destruction can remove machinegun receivers from the Firearms Act's coverage. We can find nothing in the text of the Firearms Act to support this difference in treatment. "

"Indeed, we think the Bureau's broad definition of machineguns may actually be inconsistent with Congressional intent. When Congress broadened the definition of machineguns in 1968, as well as when it enacted the prohibition on machinegun possession or transfer in 1986, it left the Firearms Act's definition of semiautomatic rifles unchanged, choosing not to restrict the possession or transfer of any semiautomatics."

"The Bureau argues that the reasonableness of its rejection of Vollmer's second application also finds support in the Firearms Act's coverage of both unserviceable and serviceable firearms. See 26 U.S.C. § 5845(h) (1994). Unserviceable firearms are incapable both of shooting and of being readily restored to firing condition. Id. According to the Bureau, the guns at issue in this case_semiautomatic receivers that had once been converted into machinegun receivers_are actually more similar to serviceable machinegun receivers than are unserviceable receivers because, unlike unserviceable receivers, they can be readily restored to serviceable machinegun receivers. Therefore, the Bureau contends, treating unserviceable machinegun receivers as machineguns_as the Firearms Act does_yet excluding remodified semiautomatic receivers from the definition of machineguns is illogical. "

"Having examined the Bureau's arguments from text, structure, legislative history, and underlying policy, we find no reasonable basis for its once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun interpretation of the Firearms Act. Nor are we persuaded by the district court's own explanations of why the Bureau's position was nonetheless substantially justified. Although, as the district court observed, the Bureau had followed its interpretation of the Firearms Act since at least the early 1980s, we do not see how merely applying an unreasonable statutory interpretation for several years can transform it into a reasonable interpretation. "
Smooth is Fast
User avatar
JBaum
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3146
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: NE Ohio
Contact:

Post by JBaum »

Not that I'm against ATF or anything.... but I really enjoyed reading that....

Doing something unreasonable for years, doesn't make it reasonable. Sounds like there was a little wisdom in those black robes after all.
John@German<remove this>Manuals.com

http://www.GermanManuals.com
none123

Post by none123 »

GSD,

I couldn't get the full ruling to come up. Could you post another link

thanks
User avatar
gunslingerdoc
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:45 pm
Location: middle, MS

Post by gunslingerdoc »

It seems to have disappeared - you'll have to do a search on the site itself. Sorry
Smooth is Fast
User avatar
762x51
Oberst
Oberst
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:31 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by 762x51 »

gunslingerdoc wrote:It seems to have disappeared - you'll have to do a search on the site itself. Sorry
What was the case so we can do a search..
"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it." Gen. R.E. Lee CSA
Skype ID: ACE1100
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

WOW!! that sounds great. Now if we could get the NRA to get the congrss to give us back the ability to own new manufactured MGs (that the gave away in 86) we might be able to file a form 1(I believe) and make these back into Mgs. But I doub they will. What a dream if it was only legal again.
Last edited by Colorado1919 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

none123

If it means anything I understood what you were doing. Just tring to show us some other people are saying about the subject and how wrong they can be.
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
Arsenal

Post by Arsenal »

link: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/p ... 5187a.html




United States Court of Appeals

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT


Argued October 15, 1996 Decided December 24, 1996


No. 95-5187


F.J. Vollmer Company, Inc.,

Appellant


v.


John W. Magaw, Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, U.S. Department of the Treasury,

Appellee



Appeal from the United States District Court

for the District of Columbia

(No. 89cv03341)


Stephen P. Halbrook argued the cause and filed the briefs for appellant.


Fred E. Haynes, Assistant U.S. Attorney, argued the cause for appellee. With him on the brief were Eric H. Holder, Jr., U.S. Attorney, and R. Craig Lawrence, Assistant U.S. Attorney.


Before: Williams, Rogers and Tatel, Circuit Judges.


Opinion for the Court filed by Circuit Judge Tatel.


Tatel, Circuit Judge : This case presents a recurring question under the Equal Access to Justice Act: In evaluating a claim for fees under the Act, what standard of reasonableness should a court use to determine whether an agency's action was "substantially justified"? In the case before us, this court previously overturned a decision by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, holding the Bureau's action was inconsistent with the governing statute and would have produced an "incredible" result. The district court nonetheless found the agency's decision to have been substantially justified and thus denied petitioner reimbursement for fees and expenses. Reviewing the district court's ruling under the deferential abuse-of-discretion standard, we conclude that the agency's position was not substantially justified because it was wholly unsupported by the text, legislative history, and underlying policy of the governing statute. Although we thus grant petitioner's request for fees and expenses, we deny reimbursement at an enhanced rate and reduce the fee amount to reflect petitioner's less than complete success.


I
In an effort to restrict the availability of machineguns, Congress amended the Gun Control Act in 1986, making it illegal to possess or transfer any machinegun except one lawfully possessed before the amendment's May 19, 1986, effective date or one possessed or transferred "by or under the authority of, the United States ... or a State...." 18 U.S.C. § 922( o ) (1994). The Gun Control Act takes its definition of "machinegun" from the National Firearms Act. Id. § 921(a)(23). According to that definition, machineguns include:


any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger .... the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) (1994). A weapon's receiver is the frame "which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel." 27 C.F.R. § 179.11 (1996). The group of parts used to convert a non-automatic weapon for automatic fire is called a machinegun conversion kit.

At the time Congress amended the Gun Control Act, petitioner, F.J. Vollmer Co., a firearms manufacturer, possessed 175 machinegun conversion kits. Under the terms of the 1986 amendment, these kits were legally transferable machineguns. In order to determine which receivers the kits could be combined with for sale as complete weapons, Vollmer submitted two transfer applications to the Bureau. In both applications, Vollmer proposed combining machinegun conversion kits with semiautomatic receivers, i.e., receivers designed as parts of weapons that shoot only one shot with each pull of the trigger. The receivers in the two applications differed, however, in one crucial respect. The receiver in the first application had been converted into a machinegun receiver after May 19, 1986, the effective date of the Gun Control Act's machinegun prohibition. In the second application, Vollmer modified a similar receiver a second time, returning it to its original semiautomatic state. The Bureau denied the first application, concluding that the receiver qualified as a prohibited machinegun and that its combination with a legally possessed machinegun conversion kit could not alter its illegal status. Even though the receiver covered by the second application was physically indistinguishable from a brand new, perfectly legal semiautomatic receiver, the Bureau also treated it as a prohibited machinegun because Vollmer had converted it into a machinegun receiver after May 19, 1986. It thus denied Vollmer's second application as well.

The district court upheld the Bureau's denial of both applications. This court agreed with the district court concerning the denial of the first application, but reversed the district court and overturned the Bureau's denial of the second application for several reasons. F.J. Vollmer Co. v. Higgins, 23 F.3d 448 (D.C. Cir. 1994). First, the Bureau offered no reasoning supporting its once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun reading of the National Firearms Act. Id. at 451. Second, although the Bureau asserted in court that its rejection of the application rested on its determination that the twice reconfigured semiautomatic receiver was "potentially restorable" to being a machinegun receiver, the Bureau made no findings of fact to support that claim. Id. Third, the Bureau's position conflicted with its own enforcement manual, which allowed exclusion of a weapon from Firearms Act coverage through removal of the feature that led to its classification as a firearm under the Act. Id. at 451-52. Finally, the Bureau's reading of the Firearms Act led to the "incredible" conclusion that every semiautomatic receiver manufactured after May 19, 1986, must be considered readily restorable to being a machinegun receiver and thus a prohibited machinegun under the Gun Control Act. Id. at 452.

Vollmer then sought reimbursement for fees and expenses pursuant to the Equal Access to Justice Act, 5 U.S.C. § 504; 28 U.S.C. § 2412 (1994). That Act provides that a "prevailing party" in civil suits against the United States not sounding in tort is entitled to fees and expenses unless the Government's position was "substantially justified" or "special circumstances make an award unjust." Id. § 2412(d)(1)(A). A party prevails when "actual relief on the merits of his claim materially alters the legal relationship between the parties by modifying the defendant's behavior in a way that directly benefits the plaintiff." Farrar v. Hobby, 506 U.S. 103, 111-12 (1992); see also Cooper v. United States R.R. Retirement Bd., 24 F.3d 1414, 1416 (D.C. Cir. 1994). Including both the agency's action and the arguments defending that action in court, 28 U.S.C. § 2412(d)(2)(D) (1994), the Government's position is substantially justified if it is "justified in substance or in the main_that is, justified to a degree that could satisfy a reasonable person. That is no different from ... [having] a reasonable basis both in law and fact." Pierce v. Underwood, 487 U.S. 552, 565 (1988) (internal quotation marks and citation omitted). The Government bears the burden of establishing that its position was substantially justified. Lundin v. Mecham, 980 F.2d 1450, 1459 (D.C. Cir. 1992) (citing Jones v. Lujan, 887 F.2d 1096, 1098 (D.C. Cir. 1989)).

Although the district court found that Vollmer was a prevailing party, it rejected Vollmer's claim for fees and expenses, concluding that the Bureau's denial of the company's second application had been substantially justified. Vollmer now appeals.


II
Both parties agree that Vollmer is a "prevailing party" under the Equal Access to Justice Act. Both parties also agree, as do we, that the district court properly found that this court's previous rejection of the Bureau's interpretation of the Firearms Act does not settle the question we face today: whether the Government's position was substantially justified within the meaning of the Equal Access Act. The inquiry into the reasonableness of the Government's position under the Equal Access Act "may not be collapsed into our antecedent evaluation of the merits, for the EAJA sets forth a "distinct legal standard.' " Cooper, 24 F.3d at 1416 (quoting FEC v. Rose, 806 F.2d 1081, 1089 (D.C. Cir. 1986)).

Although the substantial justification inquiry differs from the merits determination, the court's merits reasoning may be quite relevant to the resolution of the substantial justification question. In some cases, the standard of review on the merits is so close to the reasonableness standard applicable to determining substantial justification that a losing agency is unlikely to be able to show that its position was substantially justified. See United States v. One Parcel of Real Property, 960 F.2d 200, 209 (1st Cir. 1992); see also Gregory C. Sisk, The Essentials of the Equal Access to Justice Act: Court Awards of Attorney's Fees for Unreasonable Government Conduct (Part Two), 56 La. L. Rev. 1, 23-42 (1995). Thus we have held that where an agency's decision was overturned as unsupported by substantial evidence, the agency's position was not substantially justified because it "lacked a reasonable factual basis." Cooper, 24 F.3d at 1417 (emphasis omitted). In contrast, whether agency action invalidated as arbitrary and capricious might nevertheless have been substantially justified depends on what precisely the court meant by "arbitrary and capricious." For example, a determination that an agency acted arbitrarily and capriciously because it failed to provide an adequate explanation or failed to consider some relevant factor in reaching a decision "may not warrant a finding that [the] agency's action lacked substantial justification." Wilkett v. ICC, 844 F.2d 867, 871 (D.C. Cir. 1988) (citing Rose, 806 F.2d at 1087-89). However, "a finding that an agency acted arbitrarily and capriciously by denying equal treatment to similarly situated parties"_we would say clearly similarly situated_or by failing to enforce a rule where it plainly applied "renders it much more likely that the Government's action was not substantially justified." Id. (citing Rose, 806 F.2d at 1089). Moreover, because "unreasonable" may have different meanings in different contexts, even the presence of that term or one of its synonyms in the merits decision does not necessarily suggest that the Government will have a difficult time establishing that its position was substantially justified. See, e.g., United States v. $19,047.00 in United States Currency, 95 F.3d 248, 251-52 (2d Cir. 1996) (explaining why search found unreasonable under Fourth Amendment may be reasonable for Equal Access Act purposes). Likewise, the absence of the word "unreasonable" does not necessarily suggest that the Government's position was substantially justified. The relevance of a court's reasoning on the merits to the reasonableness inquiry under the Equal Access Act thus depends on the nature of the case.

In this case, whether the Bureau's position was substantially justified turns on the reasonableness of the once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun reading of the Firearms Act that informed the Bureau's rejection of Vollmer's second application. Whether the Bureau's position was substantially justified, however, is not an issue we review de novo. We limit our inquiry to determining whether the district court abused its discretion in finding the once-a-machinegun- always-a-machinegun interpretation reasonable. Pierce, 487 U.S. at 563 . In the Equal Access Act context, abuse-of-discretion review involves two steps. We first ask whether the district court relied on the proper legal standards. Did it, for example, define substantial justification in terms of reasonableness? Did it recognize that the Government's position includes both the agency's action and the arguments offered in court in defense of that action? Errors in these and other purely legal determinations necessarily constitute abuses of discretion. See, e.g., Koon v. United States, 116 S. Ct. 2035, 2047 (1996); Cooter & Gell v. Hartmarx Corp., 496 U.S. 384, 402 (1990).

If, as in this case, the district court made no errors in setting forth the legal standards under the Equal Access Act, we then proceed to the second step, examining the district court's application of those standards to the facts before it. In some Equal Access Act cases, that determination turns largely on an assessment of the strength of the evidence supporting the Government's stance; in other cases, it may turn on a judgment about the reasonableness of the Government's interpretation of statutes or regulations. Although in either case we give substantial deference to the district court's decision, Pierce, 487 U.S. at 560 -61; see also Cooter & Gell, 496 U.S. at 403 -04 (describing "unitary abuse-of-discretion standard" established by Pierce ); Trahan v. Brady, 907 F.2d 1215, 1217 (D.C. Cir. 1990) (applying abuse-of-discretion standard to purely legal substantial-justification determination), our deference does not exempt the district court's substantial justification determination from appellate scrutiny. We will reverse the district court if its decision rests on clearly erroneous factual findings or if it leaves us with " "a definite and firm conviction that the court below committed a clear error of judgment in the conclusion it reached upon a weighing of the relevant factors.' " De Allende v. Baker, 891 F.2d 7, 11 n.7 (1st Cir. 1989) (quoting In re Josephson, 218 F.2d 174, 182 (1st Cir. 1954)); see also Hanover Potato Products, Inc. v. Shalala, 989 F.2d 123, 127 (3d Cir. 1993) (relying on same definition of abuse of discretion in reviewing Equal Access Act decision).

Applying these standards, we conclude that the district court's decision in this case reflected an error of judgment amounting to an abuse of discretion. Simply repeating arguments made by the Bureau before the merits panel without offering any explanation why those arguments showed the Bureau's position was reasonable, the district court largely failed to grapple with the reasoning underlying this court's merits decision and its conclusion that the Bureau's position was not merely incorrect but unreasonable. Although the merits panel did not use the word "unreasonable," by pointing out that the Bureau's approach required treating identical weapons in completely different ways, it highlighted the fundamental unreasonableness of the Bureau's position. Although a brand new semiautomatic receiver may legally be possessed and transferred, under the Bureau's interpretation of the Firearms Act, a semiautomatic receiver that has been modified into a machinegun receiver and then restored to its original semiautomatic state may not be possessed or transferred, even though its reconfiguration makes it indistinguishable from a brand new semiautomatic. "ncredible" was the word this court used to describe that result. F.J. Vollmer Co., 23 F.3d at 452.

In support of its argument that its distinction between new and remodified semiautomatic receivers, although rejected by the merits panel, was nevertheless reasonable, the agency points out that the Firearms Act treats machineguns differently from other firearms. The agency is certainly correct that, unlike in the case of other weapons, the Firearms Act includes machinegun receivers and machinegun conversion kits as machineguns in their own right. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) (1994). The agency offers no convincing explanation, however, why this difference should lead to different procedures for removing machineguns as opposed to all other weapons from Firearms Act coverage. According to the agency, for weapons other than machineguns, removal of the features that led to the weapon's classification as a firearm suffices to remove the weapon from the Act's coverage. Firearms Enforcement Program, ATF Order 3310.4B ¶ 83(e)(2). For machinegun receivers, however, removal of the features causing their classification as machineguns does not remove them from Firearms Act coverage, and thus the Gun Control Act's prohibition. Under the agency's once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun policy, only complete destruction can remove machinegun receivers from the Firearms Act's coverage. We can find nothing in the text of the Firearms Act to support this difference in treatment.

Defending its once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun policy, the Bureau also argues that Congress expected it to interpret the definition of machineguns as broadly as possible. The Senate report on the 1968 amendment to the Gun Control Act that broadened the definition of machineguns to include receivers and conversion kits, however, does not support the Bureau's argument. The report simply shows that Congress intended to treat machinegun receivers and conversion kits as machineguns in their own right and that the same standards for ready restorability and unserviceableness would apply to machinegun receivers and to complete machineguns. See S. Rep. No. 90-1501 at 45-46 (1968). Indeed, we think the Bureau's broad definition of machineguns may actually be inconsistent with Congressional intent. When Congress broadened the definition of machineguns in 1968, as well as when it enacted the prohibition on machinegun possession or transfer in 1986, it left the Firearms Act's definition of semiautomatic rifles unchanged, choosing not to restrict the possession or transfer of any semiautomatics. Not until 1994, acting through a separate amendment to the Gun Control Act, did Congress ban some semiautomatics, i.e., semiautomatic assault rifles. Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Pub. L. No. 103-322, § 110102, 108 Stat. 1796, 1996-98 (1994) (codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(v)). Because the Bureau's position in this case would have prohibited the transfer of one group of semiautomatics_those whose receivers have been modified into machinegun receivers and then reconfigured to their original state_it arguably would have conflicted with Congress's intention until 1994 to permit the transfer of all semiautomatics, subject, of course, to the Firearms Act's general registration and taxation provisions.

The Bureau argues that the reasonableness of its rejection of Vollmer's second application also finds support in the Firearms Act's coverage of both unserviceable and serviceable firearms. See 26 U.S.C. § 5845(h) (1994). Unserviceable firearms are incapable both of shooting and of being readily restored to firing condition. Id. According to the Bureau, the guns at issue in this case_semiautomatic receivers that had once been converted into machinegun receivers_are actually more similar to serviceable machinegun receivers than are unserviceable receivers because, unlike unserviceable receivers, they can be readily restored to serviceable machinegun receivers. Therefore, the Bureau contends, treating unserviceable machinegun receivers as machineguns_as the Firearms Act does_yet excluding remodified semiautomatic receivers from the definition of machineguns is illogical.

One problem with this argument is that the Bureau did not rely on it in rejecting Vollmer's second application. As its counsel acknowledged at oral argument, the Bureau's decision relied solely on the fact that after May 19, 1986, the receiver had been modified into a machinegun receiver. Although the Bureau did raise this argument before the district court, we do not see how it supports the reasonableness of the government's position. The Firearms Act's provision covering unserviceable firearms applies to all firearms; it does not distinguish between machineguns and other weapons, nor between complete weapons and receivers. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(h). The Bureau's insistence that machineguns, unlike all other firearms, must be destroyed in order to be removed from the Act's coverage thus cannot rest on the Act's coverage of unserviceable firearms.

Having examined the Bureau's arguments from text, structure, legislative history, and underlying policy, we find no reasonable basis for its once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun interpretation of the Firearms Act. Nor are we persuaded by the district court's own explanations of why the Bureau's position was nonetheless substantially justified. Although, as the district court observed, the Bureau had followed its interpretation of the Firearms Act since at least the early 1980s, we do not see how merely applying an unreasonable statutory interpretation for several years can transform it into a reasonable interpretation. Like the Bureau, the district court also found support for the Bureau's interpretation in United States v. Whalen, 337 F. Supp. 1012 (S.D.N.Y. 1972). But Whalen simply notes that the Firearms Act's registration provisions cover unserviceable as well as serviceable firearms and that unserviceable machineguns therefore are machineguns under the Act. Whalen, 337 F. Supp. at 1016-17. Whalen does not address the status of receivers of any sort, whether machinegun receivers, semiautomatic receivers, or receivers converted from one form to another.

Finally, the district court pointed out that the enforcement manual the merits panel relied on to demonstrate the inconsistency of the Bureau's stance did not cover machineguns. Yet the first example in the relevant section of the manual concerns the reconfiguration of a semiautomatic that had been converted into a machinegun. Firearms Enforcement Program, ATF Order 3310.4B ¶ 83(f)(1). According to the manual, removal of the parts that converted the semiautomatic into a machinegun would suffice to remove the weapon from coverage by the Firearms Act's definition of machineguns. Although the example does not address machinegun receivers in particular, we think it undercuts the district court's assertion that the manual does not cover weapons that have been converted into machineguns.


III
Having determined that the agency's position was not "substantially justified" and that Vollmer is thus entitled to recover fees and expenses, we next address the appropriate amount of reimbursement. This requires that we resolve two questions: Is Vollmer entitled to reimbursement of attorney's fees at an enhanced rate? Is the company entitled to reimbursement for all the hours its attorney spent on the case even though it succeeded in overturning only the Bureau's denial of its second transfer application?

In support of its request for reimbursement at an elevated rate, Vollmer cites the Equal Access Act's provision for higher rates in cases involving "a special factor, such as the limited availability of qualified attorneys for the proceedings involved." 28 U.S.C. § 2412(d)(2)(A)(ii) (1994). Interpreting this clause narrowly, the Supreme Court has held that it refers to "attorneys having some distinctive knowledge or specialized skill." Pierce, 487 U.S. at 572 . As examples, the Court has referred to "an identifiable practice specialty such as patent law, or knowledge of foreign law or language." Id. We have interpreted this to mean that fee enhancement is available only for lawyers whose specialty "requir[es] technical or other education outside the field of American law." Waterman Steamship Corp. v. Maritime Subsidy Bd., 901 F.2d 1119, 1124 (D.C. Cir. 1990) (emphasis omitted).

Although Vollmer's attorney performed ably in this case, we think his specialization in firearms law does not require the sort of expertise Congress contemplated when it authorized higher fees in special circumstances. To be sure, lawyers practicing administrative law typically develop expertise in a particular regulated industry, whether energy, communications, railroads, or firearms. But they usually gain this expertise from experience, not from the specialized training justifying fee enhancement. If expertise acquired through practice justified higher reimbursement rates, then all lawyers practicing administrative law in technical fields would be entitled to fee enhancements. Because nothing in the Equal Access Act or its legislative history, see H.R. Rep. No. 99-120 (1985), reprinted in 1985 U.S.C.C.A.N. 132; H.R. Rep. No. 96-1418 (1980), reprinted in 1980 U.S.C.C.A.N. 4984, 4993-94, indicates that Congress intended this result, we conclude that Vollmer's attorney is entitled to reimbursement at the regular statutory rate of $75 per hour adjusted for the increase in the cost of living.

Turning to the second issue, the product of a reasonable hourly rate and the number of hours reasonably expended on the entire case only establishes a base for calculating the amount of reimbursable fees. If the prevailing party achieved less than complete success, we must reduce that base to reflect the degree of success achieved. Farrar, 506 U.S. at 114 ; Commissioner, INS v. Jean, 496 U.S. 154, 161 (1990). As required by the Supreme Court, we assess a party's degree of success by asking two questions: "First, did the [party] fail to prevail on claims that were unrelated to the claims on which he succeeded? Second, did the [party] achieve a level of success that makes the hours reasonably expended a satisfactory basis for making a fee award?" Hensley v. Eckerhart, 461 U.S. 424, 434 (1983); see also Goos v. National Ass'n of Realtors, 997 F.2d 1565, 1568 (D.C. Cir. 1993).

Claims are related if they "involve a common core of facts or [are] based on related legal theories." Hensley, 461 U.S. at 435 . Under this standard, Vollmer's claims were closely related. The weapon covered by its second application was a modified version of the weapon submitted with its first application. Vollmer's challenges to the denial of both applications rested on similar arguments about the reach of the Firearms Act's inclusion of machinegun receivers within the definition of machineguns.

Proceeding to the second Hensley question, we "compute the appropriate fee as a function of degree of success." George Hyman Constr. Co. v. Brooks, 963 F.2d 1532, 1537 (D.C. Cir. 1992) (citing Hensley, 461 U.S. at 434 -35). The Bureau urges us to reduce Vollmer's fee significantly, arguing that the market value of the remodified semiautomatic receivers Vollmer was able to sell was much less than the market value of the receivers it could have sold if the denial of its first application had been overturned. Comparing the prices of the guns Vollmer could have sold if its first transfer application had been approved to those of the weapons it was able to sell, the Bureau claims that Vollmer is entitled to only 19. of the fees requested. Because the Bureau's approach is just the sort of formulaic method disapproved in Hensley, Hensley, 461 U.S. at 435 -36 & n.11, we would not adopt its reasoning even if we could substantiate the Bureau's claims about firearm prices. If this court had sustained the Bureau's denial of Vollmer's second application, the company would have been unable to sell any of its weapons. But because Vollmer successfully challenged the denial of that application, it was able to sell the weapons, although presumably for less than it might have had it prevailed on the first application. See Compl. ¶ 8 (alleging that company modified receivers to machinegun configuration in order to "enhance the value of the firearms"). Vollmer's attorney thus achieved a significant, though less than complete, victory for his client.

Although we reject the Government's formulaic approach, we do think some reduction is appropriate to account for Vollmer's failure to overturn the denial of its first transfer application. Even in cases where claims are interrelated, courts should proportion fees to the "significance of the overall relief obtained by the plaintiff in relation to the hours reasonably expended on the litigation." Id. at 435. Had Vollmer's failure to set aside the Bureau's denial of its first application been only a minor defeat, we would most likely approve its full request. But because Vollmer's failure to overturn the denial of its first application reduced the "significance of the overall relief obtained," id.; cf. Goos v. National Ass'n of Realtors, 68 F.3d 1380, 1387 & n.12 (D.C. Cir. 1995), reh'g denied, 74 F.3d 300, 302 (D.C. Cir. 1996), and because Vollmer's attorney no doubt devoted some portion of his time to that claim, we think a reduction is appropriate. The magistrate judge who reviewed Vollmer's fee petition concluded that reimbursement for 70. of the hours claimed equitably reflects the degree of success achieved by the company, and Vollmer acknowledges as much. Reply Br. at 11. Agreeing with the magistrate judge's assessment, we award Vollmer $29,272.84.


So ordered.
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

Arsenal

If I read this right it says what we alreay know convert the scrape pieces to SA before you weld them together. Then they are semiauto.
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
justashooter
Unteroffizier
Unteroffizier
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:33 am

Post by justashooter »

i agree that an mg reweld that is complete and unmodified for even one instant is a machine gun. a reweld that is capable of firing 2 shots on one pull of the trigger is a machine gun, even if it's not really "finished". posession of such is chargeable for 3 years after assembly under the statutory limits, and forfeiture has no statutory limit.

the correct procedure for a semi mod is to add interference design before the demill reweld is capable of locking breach behind a cartridge. the specifics of each design make the details unique, but the principle remains. for example, if you reweld the locking nut cut on a bren kit before making your semi mods, you are not in violation.



the grey area, though, is "demonstrable intent". if you make some rewelds without at least discussing how your semi mod will be accomplished, or making some parts/drawings representative of it, a charge could be brought on the basis of demonstrable intent to manufacture a machine gun.

your very presence on this board in discussion argues against such demonstrable intent.
working on it!
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

justashooter
the grey area, though, is "demonstrable intent". if you make some rewelds without at least discussing how your semi mod will be accomplished, or making some parts/drawings representative of it, a charge could be brought on the basis of demonstrable intent to manufacture a machine gun.

your very presence on this board in discussion argues against such demonstrable intent.
Are you saying that if I were not registered here yet still made the semi mods before I rewelded the ATf could still get me for "demonstrable intent"? Or is this only if I do something DUNB like reweld before I make the semi mods? To me if I rewelded without the semi mods they sure would make me go to club fed.
MAKE THOSE SEMI MODS FIRST!
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
kmw

Post by kmw »

"demonstrable intent":

A very important concept in law, and one of the reasons why I post silly little things on boards like this. "I just bought some SEMI internals..." "How did you weld in the bolt block?"

Things to consider:

Tell people you trust (people that aren't going to turn you in and understand, like people here) that you are "building a legal semi-auto".

Post updates on your project.

Save every receipt and e-mail on the project.

Take a bunch of pictures! Post a pic "here's me welding in the bolt block", "here's my semi lower group", "here's my receiver, see how the original grip stick won't fit?". Record everything you are doing. Make sure you have plenty of evidence showing that your true intent is to enjoy your hobby as a law abiding citizen. It really isn't that hard to document, and may just be what will convince a jury that you're a gentle firearms enthusiast and not a "tear-ist".

Get rid of any FA parts you don't need. No real reason to have an unmodified bolt or grip stick about, is there?

On my other semi build project, a short barreled rifle based on a Sterling Mk4/L2A3 with semi Mk6 internals (ah the things a man will do for his wife!), everyone I've bought parts from I've told what I'm doing. My computer has many reference pictures of Mk6 receivers. I've put on postings how my steps are "Form 1, then modify blank tube for semi only, then build...". I sold my Mk4 trigger pack and bolt, no more FA parts. It's so easy to document what you're up to...why not? Paranoid? Maybe, but with boards like this, e-mail, and digital cameras, so easy to do.
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

kmw

The stuff you have posted on your Mk6 was it on this site our somewhere else? Would like to to see it. Especially the form 1 stuff.

The stuff about the "demonstrable intent" is great we all need to keep this in mind and maybe it will help if the worst happens and for some unexplained reason the feds come after us.
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
EZFEED

Post by EZFEED »

You are all beating your heads against the wall in trying to educate others about this hobby. I've engaged in countless battles like the one posted and all they end up in is ugly words and more frustration and while you may be right and have the legal proof to back you up you will still be the minority and remain the one seen as a troublemaker.

If the person is intrested in building then you might have a chance but more than often such individuals are not mechanically inclined and incapable of builds past the complexity of such weapons as the G-3, AKM, and AR. In such a case it is best that they not engage in this area until they mature a bit and gain more knowledge into the legal facets of this hobby. Our class of weapons are not of the "plug and play" variety and individuals like these will not have the patience to tinker with them until they set in.
Last edited by EZFEED on Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Colorado1919
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Colorado Springs CO

Post by Colorado1919 »

EZ
Never thought of it in that light. But you are right. If they can't do it it can't be done legally. Plus there are people that think FAs can't be legal so anything that looks like a MG can't be legal either. The ones I don't like or the ones that do know what is legal but feel that we are the lunatic fringe of the shooting sports. Some feel that beltfeeder = bottom-feeder. Those people I do have a problem with.
Happiness is a WARM beltfed.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was." Toby Keith

Live to shoot, shoot to live.

Belt-feeders does not = bottom-feeders.
ctyankee

Post by ctyankee »

Colorado1919 wrote:EZ
Never thought of it in that light. But you are right. If they can't do it it can't be done legally. Plus there are people that think FAs can't be legal so anything that looks like a MG can't be legal either. The ones I don't like or the ones that do know what is legal but feel that we are the lunatic fringe of the shooting sports. Some feel that beltfeeder = bottom-feeder. Those people I do have a problem with.
It is amazing that most of these people (that are in the shooting community) that think that we are on that lunatic fringe claim to be supporters of the second ammendment. But it apperars to me that they only support as far as their extent of the sport goes. I too have gotten into many discussions (turning into almost arguements) on this subject. I think what so many people miss is the true engineering brilliance, history and mechanical knowledge it takes to bring one of these back to life or to keep an operable fa operating. What so many people forget is it is about the whole sport, not just certain factions of it. Only standing for these certain factions of the sport are why politicians from states like CA are able to do what it is they are doing. JMHO
User avatar
TOM R
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
Posts: 3355
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:11 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: ESCAPED FROM Nazi Jersey, !!!

Post by TOM R »

everyone makes solid valid points here unfortunatly it is just preachin to the chior (sp) cause it seems most guys are only concerned with thir sport and as long as their sport is still legal( most of which is anything but sport) they kep their heads down and let their government slowly chip away at their rights and by the time it finaly affects them it will be too late, i am a life member nra but they seem to be a waste as they are too quick to make comprimises that only hinder us as opposed to help us, there should be no comprimise, the constitution is the law of the land and it seems more and more the government does what they want,

:ot: I was watchin the history channel where pres jackson was takin property from native americans, they sued the government in the supream court and won but the government still did what they wanted, problem is if the government has all the weapons there is noone to keep them in checkand noone to enforce rulings of the courts that the government disagrees with (off topic but I was tryin to make a point)

oh well no more rant :D
Great men are born in fire, it is the privilege of lessor men to light the flame, no matter the cost


FOR M60 GOTO http://WWW.M60MG.COM
nra lifer
mvpa 31698
46 cj2a
54 m37
56 CJ3B U.S. Navy
t24/m29 weasel
Post Reply