Chinese MG42 receiver pieces?

[gdmoore28]

Just wondering, with BRP receiver stampings running in the $1K range, would it be legal to import stampings like these from China? I've been talking with some Chinese manufacturers about manufacturing some merchandise for me (musical instruments -- not gun related), and their willingness to tool up for special projects just amazes me. And the costs have been VERY reasonable.

Could the BRP-type stampings be legally imported?

I know there is always a concern about quality issues when it comes to Chinese goods, but I've found so far in dealing with Chinese manufacturers that you get what you ASK for. As long as the customer is very exacting about his quality requirements, the manufacturer's are more than willing to deliver exactly what is specified.

The Chinese government subsidizes even very small cottage-size factories, so it is not uncommon to see small fabricators with brand new CAD-CAM manufacturing facilities.

If somebody can offer any direction on establishing the TRUE legalities of importing such pieces, I'll be happy to use the contacts I've established to at least explore the costs of having full receiver stampings manufactured. I'm sure it's illegal to import assembled receiver stampings. but it seems that the BRP-style stampings might be OK.

Again, I need references to relevant BATFE regulation sections and laws -- not just opinions. As I've posted before, I'm an absolute to the MG-build hobbie (and my upcoming builds for now will be only gas-guns) so I'll be depending on your knowledge to direct me to relevant legalities. I don't want to take ANY steps in any direction that might be illegal.

This might be a dead end, but it might be worth looking into.

Thanks again guys.

GDM

[TOM R]

I would think there is nothing wrong with importing stampings like the reciever in 2 halves like brp does not assembled, you would still need to do alot of finish work, you would also need to make ratchet plates and barrel bearings, also there are parts inside that need to be spot welded in once the 2 halves are assembled, the problem is most home builders may not have access to the necisary tools to finish the reciever, I am sure they can make a complete reciever overseas with markings, you need to realy find out what 80% is (legaly) which means submitting a sample to the batf to get a letter from them stating yes/no what you need to do etc., there IS a market for this item reasonably priced

i am moving this to the legalities section

[drooling idiot]

Instead of stamping it there and having to deal with the BATFE on importing receiver parts that are politically incorrect get the stamping dies made there and import THE DIES to stamp it here. you'll avoid a ton of complications.

[centerx]

There you guys go, THINKING, again. Curious what a Chicom die set would cost in comparison to US made.

[gdmoore28]

Importing the dies is an excellent idea -- clears all the possible major legal issues I would think. I'd like to get as many other ideas as possible, but this sounds promising. As soon as I get enough input on this with various suggestions I'll check my Chinese contacts for reference to a die maker, send them the blueprints and get a quotation.

One thing for certain -- we sure can't lose anything by at least exploring the possibilities.

GDM

[salt6]

Add stampings for the MP 44 also.


salt

[toolman_556]

the problem with buying chinese tooling is that many times the toolmakers do not build truly to " quoted specs". I have never been involved in offshore stamping/ forming dies, but those I know who have spent more time and money fixing the thing once it arrived than it was worth. The type of steel, the method of build, can all be quoted per a working proven die print and you get a piece of junk with soft leader pins, unidentified steel, and lasts about 4 hits. I strongly caution those who know nothing about stamping dies trying to get one built in china. The other catch is, you have to know press specs you want to run it in. Presses are more like heavy duty trucks than passenger cars in that each one is built to the customer specs. There are not many true standards in stamping presses when it comes to bed size, stroke, speed, shut height, etc. You need a stamper picked out first. Then you proceed with building tooling to fit that stampers equipment.

[whitezcamaro]

somebody NEEDS to stamp something!!!!

[propos]

Well, why doesn't someone with stamping and die expertise get together with someone who has contacts with someone who can make the dies to work in whatever press will be used. And then figure out how to get the deal done. Jeesh, sometimes I think I'm living in another country. We need solutions and results...not excuses why we can't do something.
Why is it that when someone comes up with an idea, someone else tries to tell them why it can't be done instead saying, "great idea. now let's figure out how we can accomplish it."

[gdmoore28]

Toolman,

I was hoping you would comment. I really appreciate Propos's encouragement because I tend to get a bit discouraged as the inevitable roadblocks begin to pile up. But he's exactly right, you know. The people who really get things done are those who adhere to the traditional American "Can Do" attitude and push ahead thru all the wasp nests and boobytraps that ALWAYS crop up -- even on simple projects.

Nonetheless, I'm going into this completely ignorant of diemaking. I need any insight you can give. And any references you can give to links that will help educate me on what I need to know. Your knowledge could make this feasible -- or keep me from making some costly mistakes.

I'm aware of the Chinese quality-switch problem that you've brought up. It's true. What I've done in finding a manufacturer for the musical instruments that I'm looking into importing is go to the same people that produce quality instruments for a -- shall we say --- well-known American manufacturer. I've seen their work, I've talked to their other customers, and I bought a sample of their products right off their assembly line. Still no guarantees (is there ever?), but I think I've done my homework on these music products. I'd hope to be able to do the same with a die maker -- if I know what to look for.

There are several guys on this board who can help on this project and make sure it's done right. Some of You may even have Chinese (or Korean, or Indonesian, or Mexican, or...or...or...) contacts already established. There's bound to be enough people on this board who need these parts and who can work together to have them manufactured at an affordable price. I don't have the money to finance a project like this, but I need the parts, too, and I'll certainly do everything I can to make them available for all our benefit.

Still want to hear other opinions/suggestions/links.

Tom R. -- Since this idea will need the attention of the broadest MG42 audience, do we need to move this thread to the build it yourself section, or should I just start a new related thread there?

Garry

[toolman_556]

I have the capability to manufacture the dies. I have contacts local to me in the stamping industry. The part engineering verification itself is the most difficult part. Inspection gages will need to made to check critical aspects and know when the die is making a good part initially. Tolerancing is the hardest thing to reverse engineer. This will not be a fast part to make. A tool of this stature will take 24-36 weeks from zero to reverse engineer, tool, up, and try out. Now for the difficult question, How many people would buy them? It comes down to money, if it justifies we have a project on our hands.

[041x]

I was once in the tool and die bussiness and than everybody got the same BAD idea as some of you on this board and got dies made in china. I seen the crap dies from china like toolman. They would do the dumbest things and have to make everything over again. I'm not sure how much you guys have to spend but looking at the BRP stampings you will have $50,000+ before you have a receiver in you hand. As far a the ATF I would say they would consider this an 80% receiver and you would have to summit a sample for aproval.

[salt6]

Here is what the Germans did to make the MG 42 receiver. I think you will need more than one die. BRP as I recall makes four pieces and welds them together.

[gdmoore28]

Salt6--

Fantastic photos of the production steps. They show very clearly why the makers of the BRP die found it necessary to split their pressings into receiver/shroud sections. The original German process eliminated the necessity of welding four stampings together to form one unit -- and dramatically improved structural rigidity and production output in the process.

Toolman--

What's the minimum number of die necessary to stamp the BRP-style sections?

[gdmoore28]

Would the primary interest of our builders be the rear rcvr sections only, or the rear and shroud sections together? In my case, I would buy both rear and shroud sections if the cost were low enough, but I would be delirious to have the rear section only -- even if it meant welding the halves together and fabricating the attachments.

We need to move this discussion to the building topic so that more people will see it and respond as to their interest.

Concerning the number of people interested in these peices, that total would far exceed the group of builders represented on this excellent board. Think of all the parts kits that have been sold, and how many are waiting to be built pending the availability of receiver parts. Word of availability will spread very quickly among MG42/M53 builders and kit owners. I alone have three kits waiting for receivers.

GDM

[toolman_556]

the photos help. brp did 4 sections to simplify the tooling. i'd say brp probably has 1 form die, 1 trim die, and is using lasered blanks. they may be getting the formed pieces laser trimmed on a 5 ax tube laser to eliminate the trim die. there are several ways to go about it.

[striker754]

Looks expensive. How much do you think per stamping? NOt being negative, but unless toolman is doing this for no pay, I doubt the price will be reasonable. I mean BRP gets like 900 for just the rear stuff.

[gdmoore28]

Since the direction of this discussion has turned away from legalities, I've posted a new thread with this topic on the General Discussion section. Should get more attention and input there.

[justashooter]

There are several guys on this board who can help on this project and make sure it's done right. Some of You may even have Chinese (or Korean, or Indonesian, or Mexican, or...or...or...) contacts already established.
Garry

i am in central china most of the year working with a heavy steel manufacturer. this company employs 10,000 people, and i am buying 15 million in product from them in 2006, so i have a little pull. unfortunately, my experience with chinese manufacture is that you will not get what you pay for, especially if it involves development of process.

i toyed with the idea of carrying 3 sets of internals for semi-1919 conversion, with an example and KMP set to copy, but i think i would be wiser spending my money here, than getting junk for free. then there's the issue of checking firearms parts on an international flight...

one other issue you are not considering is the import/export tax requirement. it's about 16% on each end for goods like sheet metal stampings. there is a bunch of red tape you could spend all day struggling with, adn still not get what you are hoping for.

if you are in china, call me at 13598465524 and we can get together for a bingda pijou, maybe tsing tao, or luoyang gong.

[gdmoore28]

Thanks for the invite!

I've lucked out so far with the Chinese manufacturer I'm dealing with. For one thing, they have fluent English speakers on staff who have been diligent in making sure I get what I want. Plus, they've been dealing with a major American musical instrument supplier for years, so I think I'm riding on the work on the other company.

I haven't taken my first big order yet, so we'll see. They did manufacture a demo piece that was very good, and I've had a chance to examine the products that they supply to the American company. So my fingers are crossed. I may be writing back to you later and crying up a storm . . . .

Just out of curiosity, do you have any MG42 receiver stamping blueprints on hand? Just for the heck of it, it would be very interesting to submit them to a reliable Chinese die manufacturer and find out how much they want to make the die.

As noted before though, we currently have a board member working on it here in the US. May turn out to be economically unfeasible, but it never hurts to explore the possibilities. I'm just the kind of person who -- if I'm going to be dissapointed -- I want to have at least TRIED to find a way.

I appreciate your comments.

(I think it would be interesting to us all to hear about the gun community in China -- IF IT EXISTS AT ALL? Are they allowed to have sporting arms? Hunting? Militaria? I'd like to hear about your experiences.)