Are the FGS Lafette Mounts worth it compared to Allegheny?

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joshk98k

Are the FGS Lafette Mounts worth it compared to Allegheny?

Post by joshk98k »

Hi Guys,

I was wondering what your opinion was. Are the Lafette's from FGS ( http://www.fgsinc.8m.com ) worth the extra money ($1450 plus shipping) compared to the Allegheny Arsenal ones? Or am I better off getting the Allegheny one and repro sling straps from IMA?

What do you guys think? I will be using this for fun and for reenacting.


Thanks,
Josh
:)
PvtJoker

Post by PvtJoker »

:shock: I think the MG3/MG42 HK tripod I got off GB last week for $375 is looking better and better all the time! Of course, I'm not a reenactor, so the purist issue isn't quite the overwhelming priority like it is for others. But $1450 is a sizable chunk of change for something that 90% of the viewing public is going to see as just holding up the weapon that they are looking at, IMHO. But hey, it's your money, not mine.
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Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

Put it in perspective. if you want just a tripod to shoot from, use the MG-3 tripod. If you want the CORRECT WWII tripod, which looks a LOT different, invest in the lafette. They are always going up in price, even the Yugo repainted ones. Just for comparison, here is a picture of a 100% all German parts refirbished tripod for $3250 including working optics in fin condition. That's top dollar. If you can clean up and repaint your own, and manage to reassemble the search fire unit after cleaning and regreasing, then you can save a fair amount of money over buying a refirbished lafette outright. Just getting a Lafette that has all German parts is not guaranteed these days, and quite hard to find. Many of the parts on postwar refirbushed lafettes may be postwar parts. If you refirbish, strip, and repaint a postwar painted lafette from Yugoslavia, you will have to reseearch what the correct colors are, and strip crappy Yugo paint off the aluminum parts, which may have traces of the green shellac coating underneath, but don't count on it. Disassembling and cleaning the search fire unit is a jigsaw puzzle in itself requiring three hands to get the spring loaded cams back in. It's a great opportunity for a small part to go *SPROING* and fly, never to be seen again. I managed to figure out how to rework the search fire unit, and can step you through the process if you are brave at taking things apart that you never have seen before and do not fully understand how they work. Since my lafette was restored properly, I can provide pictures and assembly/disassembly advice if you want to tackle rebuilding one on your own. Thinking back, I could have tackled a refirb project and saved a lot of money, but Ryan Schnee did such a beautiful job on my lafette that I have no regrets whatsoever.

You will need to locate and purchase working optics to complete your Yugo-repainted lafette if you get one, and these are expensive and rare in full working condition. From a practical standbpoint, you won't use the optics mch at the range, but the optics were a necessary part of the heavy machinegun system. If you have any questions regarding how the parts of a lafette function, let me know. It's not just a simple three legged stand to hold your gun.
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MG-42 on original Lafette
MG-42 on original Lafette
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joshk98k

WOW!!!

Post by joshk98k »

WOW!!! That's a great looking Lafette!!!! I really appreciate the offer of help and I most likely email you about it when I do the restore. Does the "Geman Manuals" Lafette book discuss taking these things apart? I know from fellow reenactors that the search fire unit can be a pain and even the trigger pull handle thingy (does it have a proper name?) can be totally stuck and need a complete strip/clean/regrease/reassemble.

Thanks again for the info and I am sure I'll be emailing you soon! :)

I guess if I buy the FGS one I'll have a guaranteed MG34 mount with Yugo upper and if I get the one from AA it could be Yugo all the way.

Either way it looks like I'll need to take it all apart, strip and repaint it, and make it "new"! :)

Wooo Hooo! I can't wait to start!

Josh
CRA

Post by CRA »

Haha seeing Kurt inject his lafette setup into another thread gave me a good chuckle :lol:
PvtJoker

Post by PvtJoker »

Well, Kurt, that certainly IS one fine looking piece of equipment ya got there. Does that offer of expertise also extend into the area of the MG-3 tripod?
KMURPHY

Post by KMURPHY »

Really nice setup ya got there
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Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

Well CRA, I figure I can inject my photos wherever they are appropriate to the subject since I shelled out tens of thousands to buy the thing, and what good would it be if it just sat in the safe and not serve to help anyone besides the shooters? ;) The German lafette manuals do not cover disassembly, only use in the field and operation. It was a strict order that only Waffenmeisters do serious in depth maintenance and disassembly. We are pretty much on our own figuring out how to take apart, clean, maintenize and reassemble a lafette. There are no sources out there that I know of, but maybe John can weigh in since he has more documents than we do regarding this matter. Folke Myrvang WILL NOT help with info because he wants to avoid a rash of mechanically inane idiots complaining to him after they bugger up their lafettes. Makes sense, but I managed to rebuild the serach fire unit without any prior knowledge in my garage, so I know that if you are darn careful and methodically watch what you do as you disassemble it, it CAN be done.

I'd be glad to assist anyone trying to return a lafette to service. To be the best help, I would probably have to take my own lafette apart, which is a real pain, and take pictures, or talk you through it over the phone. I'll probably scratch up the paint in the attempt. Many of the bolts are held in place with sheetmetal washers that lock the facet of the bolt by having edges bent upward to prevent rotation from vibrations. The search fire unit will probably betray me by throwing one of those three springs that make the friction rollers engage across the garage or out into the yard, next time I take it apart. Take it apart in a place where you can track flying parts. During assembly, the unit almost needs three hands to hold the three internal springs and friction locking rollers while you slip the outer cylindrical housing using your fourth hand over them and the compressed rollers to trap them in the correct positions. It will help you in assembly for me to explain the functions of all the internal parts after you rip it apart. Germans LOVE to make lots of parts in an arrangement that requires three hands. That goes for just about enything worthwhile that they make. I think they like mechanic's puzzles.

The cradle has to be disassembled in a specific manner and sequence to get it all apart. Any other order, and you are stopped by parts that interfere with one another. Ithink this was an insidious plot by the designer to dissuade tinkerers, by getting them killed after ruining their machinegun mounts, or at least courtmarshalled, which in Nazi Germany means serious punishment. No mercy for the stupid.

Having sold my MG-3 tripod, I can not offer assistance involving photos, which are sort of necessary to guiding someone through the disassembly prior to refinishing. The MG-3 lafette by H&K has no search fire unit, and apart from learning how to use the sight, which is also simpler, there is not much in common with the WWII lafette. The MG-3 tripod is a little more rugged as far as taking dents and abuse to the legs and joints, and its recoil spring loaded shock assembly is smoother and softens recoil better.

The advantage of the old lafette is it makes a better investment, has many more features like search fire and long range indirect fire using the vernier adjustments of the optics, although this was seldom used since the opportunity did not usually present itself.
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Post by PvtJoker »

So would it be safe to also assume then that the MG-3 tripod would be a better choice for someone who possibily wants to modify it to see if a legal crossbreed between an Akins and an AW-SIM type of set-up might be able to be created and submitted to the tech branch, without destroying a rare wartime unit? 8) (Yeah, still kicking that idea around... )
CRA

Post by CRA »

I think that may have come accross wrong. I think your lafette is tops and like seeing your many nice angle photos. Youve more aided me in what to look for. As you know I am too am after refurbing a stand, and you are the top of my list when it comes to questions about taking these these apart. I got mint optics and original straps but still looking for a worthy stand.

Fgs stands wether they are for the 34 or 42 were all built befor 41. So they are all reworked 34 stands.
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Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

Absolutely Dagobert. Why would anyone want to violate a Third Reich relic unless one was an ignorant bubba?
I even hesitate at modifying the MG-3 mounts.

CRA, MG-34 mounts are available, but I haven't seen any MG-42 lafettes around lately. I suppose you are having trouble locating one. If you have original straps and optics, then it would be really nice to get an original mount that is in great condition with original paint. The optics and straps seem to be rarer than the mount itself, so you are over the hump. That would really be hard to find, since many were repainted in Yugoslavia and Macedonia. A repainted lafette makes for a much cheaper refinishing job.
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Post by joshk98k »

Thanks for all the advice Darivs. I will treat the search fire mechanism with a little more care than my G43's bolt disassembly (which also will shoot parts out at all angles if you aren't careful). I don't want you to have to disassemble yours just to take pics. I'll give it a whirl (with the video camera on to record what I am sure to forget). Sounds like a good Sunday project for me. Too bad Minnesota is so far away from Maryland! :)

I will let you know how it goes and I'll post on here when I realize I am doing it wrong. :-P

Thanks Again,
Josh
PvtJoker

Post by PvtJoker »

DARIVS ARCHITECTVS wrote:Absolutely Dagobert. Why would anyone want to violate a Third Reich relic unless one was an ignorant bubba?
I even hesitate at modifying the MG-3 mounts.
Well, lucky for me I'm just a dumb-assed redneck, and not an ignorant bubba. :lol: And as far as modifying the MG-3 tripod goes, what I hope to be able to do once I have it home and the weapon completed to go on it, is to come up with something that would be either a bolt-on (and by that logic, also a bolt-OFF device) that would not require any irreversable mods done to either the tripod or the weapon. I'll be able to work it out better once I have it in front of me and can measure, etc. Basically something to extend the trigger to the rear that would allow it to be remotely manually bump-fired, still keeping only one shot per pull of the trigger to keep legal. Having followed along the AW-SIM vs. Akins thread from before both here and on 1919A4.com, I'd like to combine what has been said by both its supporters and its critics to find some sort of a workable middle ground that would pass a submission to the tech branch as well. I don't know if it would be something commercially viable or just something for my own personal amusement at the range to see the look on the faces of the Elmer Fudds, but as long as it has a letter from Mr. Nixon's folks confirming that it is legal, it would certainly be worth a try. I know there's a company in Cleveland, TN that makes adaptors to run a 1919A4 on one of these tripods as well as the MG-42SA; maybe I could figure out something that would work with the two weapons?
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Post by MGW LLC »

OMG,


Yeah I have made up my mind, the lafette is the way to go!
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Post by Reichpapers »

I still can't get my Lafette back together...I stripped the T&E down to the last nut and bolt :/
It's better to be silent and considered a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
joshk98k

Post by joshk98k »

Yikes! That's not too encouraging! Maybe I could send mine to Darivs and pay him to do it? ;)

Josh
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Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

Actually rebuilding a lafette would be a fun project for me and my friend Jebb, but I don't have a paint booth set up like Ryan had, and a means of baking the parts so the primer and paint cured hard. The paint gooped on by the Yugoslavians would be a pain to strip, and you want to prime and paint the parts before assembly. Ryan did the job right for me. I'd have to consider investing in a paint booth (where to put it?!) before taking refirb orders. I could do maintenance and repairs and get a lafeet working without doing the paint job now, however.
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Post by joshk98k »

How about fixing up my search fie mechanism? You guys have me all scrrrrd to take it apart! ;)
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Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

If you take it apart with the care and diligence to memorize where the parts go, and are clever enough to figure out where the internal locking rollers and springs go when they go SPROING across the room as you slip the outer cylinder off, you CAN dismantle, clean and reassemble it. If you cannot, send it to me and I'll grease and assemble it for you. (Don't forget to send ALL the parts!)
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Post by JBaum »

Dagobert:

I think it would be pretty easy to use either the MG3 or the WW2 style tripod to perform the same function as the Akins Accelerator. Just mount the mechanism to pull the trigger on the upper part of the tripod, but not on the part that moves. Therefore, as the gun recoils in the spring loaded mechanism, the trigger is released. As the MG moves forward in the spring mount, the trigger is depressed again by the relatively stationary mechanism that you devise to pull (press) the trigger.

Seems like it wouldn't take much engineering at all to set up. Remember everybody, it if works and is legal (it should be), I thought of it first! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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