Rare and Battle Damaged Maxim parts!

[IMBLITZVT]

Guys, I also received some rare parts.

First is a very early MG08 rear sight. Note the holes in the stem. Its not marked DWM so it would seem to be a Spandau. However one of the latest threads posted is of what I think is Spandau gun #635. Its got the normal rear sight. This is #688 and its the rare early style... So I don't know how this works out? There is also one pictured in Dolfs book in the #5xx number range... Note how there is no screw at the top to retain the slide. Its pinned in. Any ideas?

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[IMBLITZVT]

Next is a MG08/15 #1467. No fusee cover so its hard to say for sure which manufacturer it is. If its Spandau, its a mid 1916 (first year) production gun and so very early. However it could me another manufacturer who got to that number before switching to labeling the top cover. Has anyone see a non Spandau marked 08/15 fusee? Did the other manufacturers go straight to marking the top cover? Anyway I did not take a picture of the top cover yet as its hard to see but its only marked "1467".

As you can see this jacket had a bullet punch in the bottom and buldge the jacket! I think I will keep this one, esp since the trunnion got demilled...

[IMBLITZVT]

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9696

Compare the rear sight with one in the bottom of this thread. Anyone have any ideas? They both appear to be Spandau unless DWM failed to mark them... which I think it unlikely knowing DWM. The "early" sight is #688 and the one below is #635 which is the normal later style...

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Wow. There a lot of MG-08 activity going on in the forum these days! Makes me wish I actually had one.

[IMBLITZVT]

Wow. There a lot of MG-08 activity going on in the forum these days! Makes me wish I actually had one.

Maybe you should get one! Or you can be like me and just collect parts.

[amafrank]

I think you will find that there are no DWM 08/15's because the German govt wanted them to keep up with the 08 production and not get distracted. DWM also produced lugers, 98 mausers and other war material that couldn't be interfered with so no 08/15 production for them. The fusee covers on the 08/15's normally had a serial number with the remaining info on the topcover. Unlike the 08's they didn't put all the makers info on the fusee covers. The arsenal at Spandau was the biggest maker of 08/15's but there were 6 others (if memory serves) who built guns as well so any of them could be the guilty party. Some parts may have proofs or other markings which will help determine the maker. The number of makers in 1916 was very limited so its likely that a 1916 produced gun was built at Spandau where the development was done.

Frank

[IMBLITZVT]

"I think you will find that there are no DWM 08/15's because the German govt wanted them to keep up with the 08 production and not get distracted."

Frank, this has confused me for a while. There are MG08/15s with DW&MF markings on the top cover which Dolf says means Deutshe Waffen und Munitions Fabriken. Is this not the same as DWM the producer of MG08s and all the other things you had listed?

"The fusee covers on the 08/15's normally had a serial number with the remaining info on the topcover. Unlike the 08's they didn't put all the makers info on the fusee covers."

Frank, I am afraid that is not true. Early Spandau MG08/15s were marked on the fusee cover. I have had and sold one of those fusee covers. Also see page 167 of Goldsmith.


"The arsenal at Spandau was the biggest maker of 08/15's but there were 6 others (if memory serves) who built guns as well so any of them could be the guilty party."

I was talking about the MG08 rear sight when saying if not DWM, then Spandau as they were the only two manufacturers of MG08s.

As far as the early MG08/15, I figure the top cover/Fusee cover marking switch seems to have happened in mid 1917. So with serial number 1467, it can be Spandau Mid 1916, of one of the other manufacturers but from 1917 with the exception of DW&MF as they only got to 199 or so by the end of 1917. However I have never seen (or at least noted) a MG08/15 marked fusee cover with any other manufacturer besides Spandau. Has anyone else?

"Some parts may have proofs or other markings which will help determine the maker."
Yes, I figure I can get a lot of info from this from luger and mauser collectors. Now I just need some time to search the web. Anyone have good links to proof marks IDs?

[amafrank]

Well Matt you got me on this one. Thats the first 08/15 fusee cover I've seen with markings of that sort. Lots of 08's but no 08/15's. I've seen 3 1916 dated guns and they were all marked on the topcover Gwf Spandau with 3 digit serials on 2 of them and one was a 4 digit.
I've never heard of any DWM 08/15's as production guns, just test pieces but as with all the rules its quite possible they did build some that got sent up front. I've never seen or heard of one in the US though...
Keep digging and find some more exceptions to what people (like frank) think they know.

Keep it up Matt,
Frank

[IMBLITZVT]

"I've seen 3 1916 dated guns and they were all marked on the topcover Gwf Spandau with 3 digit serials on 2 of them and one was a 4 digit."

Frank, I have to think you are mistaken about this. I have never seen one of these so marked. If you can get a picture, I would love to see. If I recall correct the marked fusee cover I had was a 1917 Spandau cover. So I think this switch was made on the Spandau 08/15s at the same time as the switch of the MG08s.

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cimg1197uf6.jpg (70.53 KiB) Viewed 3995 times

I was being retarded about asking about the other manufacturers... since I have the earliest know Erfurt Top cover #103... which is a 1917 marked topcover. So it seems that the other manufacturers never marked the fusee covers, just Spandau. Which also means I do have a 1916 Spandau parts kit... I think.

"I've never heard of any DWM 08/15's as production guns, just test pieces but as with all the rules its quite possible they did build some that got sent up front. I've never seen or heard of one in the US though..."

Frank, well the question comes down to is DW&MF the same as DWM. I think it is. If I recall, early on in my collecting I got a DW&MF parts kit with DWM marked parts in it. I was very confused at the time but I am thinking now that these were correct parts for the gun. Why they decided to mark is DW&MF rather then DWM, I have no idea. However this DW&MF is no new knews... its in Dolfs book as the smallest of the 08/15 Manufacturers. I am just waiting to come across another one of these guns to hopefully confirm some of this. This would also explain why there are so many DWM marked Recoil plates... as they are very common and it seems like there are more than average for just MG08 production. Of course they could have been sub contracted to produce them for other 08/15 manufacturers...

Anyway, I have found the number game very interesting with German guns. I have gotten into it a bit with 1910s but there are so many unknowns and change there is about impossible. Anyway, thanks for the help and please see if you can confirm that info you said about the 1916 marked Spandau 08/15 top covers as that would really be interesting.

On other thing not related to above. On the MG08 rear sight. The thickness of the "Stem" that the slide moves up and down is very different. The later version is much thicker... I just noticed this last night. They must have really had a problem with these early style sights bending...

[dwmmg08]

Wow, Matt! You find the best stuff!

I love the discussion over the early 08/15's. Like Matt, I think that the only one making guns early enough to mark the fusee covers rather than the top cover was Spandau. I have seen another fusee cover marked like that, and seem to recall that there is also one with the Fusee cover marked in a museum in Poland.

I have a DW&MF 08/15, it's a fine gun, and all the matching parts, all of them, are marked for DWM, as I recall.

I too have seen lots of DWM marked rails, and also lots of C.G.Haenel marked rails, I believe they did subcontract lots of those out to supply other makers.

I'm sure DWM did in fact make issue 08/15's, and that mine is not just a tool room sample, as it's got a 3 digit serial #. That said, they didn't make many of them, and my DW&MF gun has some neat little differences from most other 08/15's I've seen, which indicates to me they quit making them pretty early. The number one thing I've noticed is that the bipod attachment area does not have the brass "drain" usually seen on most 08/15's: it's simply not there. Not all Bipods will work on this gun either, some will not fit. Most do, but some don't. It is marked on the topcover. Not all parts on mine are matching; I'll try to dig it out tonight and compare!

[IMBLITZVT]

That said, they didn't make many of them, and my DW&MF gun has some neat little differences from most other 08/15's I've seen, which indicates to me they quit making them pretty early. The number one thing I've noticed is that the bipod attachment area does not have the brass "drain" usually seen on most 08/15's: it's simply not there. Not all Bipods will work on this gun either, some will not fit. Most do, but some don't. It is marked on the topcover. Not all parts on mine are matching; I'll try to dig it out tonight and compare!

Glen, from the many jackets I have bought and sold, I can tell you some have the drain and some don't but its not a DW&MF thing. I think they got rid of it late war. What other differences do you see?

I have noticed that the left recoil plate... some have a curved end, some square.

[bmg17a1]

The sight is a pre-MG08 part and not for an MG08. It is identical, save for the oval holes, to the sights used on the brass contract Maxims, which have a different sized ladder, and an MG08 sight leaf will not fit. The early sights use a crosspin to stop the sight leaf at the top, and are not maker marked, but are serial numbered. DWM, Nordenfelt and Enfield all made sights like that for their Maxim production. The 1895 Argentine Maxims I have use exactly that same sight, but are calilbrated for the 7.65 Arg round.
The serial number does not indicate anything more than just that and can't indicate which make of Maxim it might have been assembled on. Howev er, it is not from an MG08.
DWM made 2000 08/15s from what I have learned, and there are onloy a few of these registered in the US. They are the most valuable of the 08/15s in the US.

Bob Naess

[bmg17a1]

[attachment=0]Arg. Maxim rear sight.

First pic is the MG08 standard rear sight off a very early DWM #39.
For comparison, the second pic is of the rear sight form an 1895 DWM Argentine Maxim #99.

I incorreclty noted above that the Argentine Maxim sight was not marked, but it has a small DWM on the lower part of the slide. The Nordenfelt made 1895 Argentime that I have has a sight slide that is not marked, but it is identical to the DWM sight.

Hope this helps.

Bob Naess

[bmg17a1]

Sorry that I accidentally posted two pics of the MG08 sight above, so the first and second pics are of the DWM MG08 #39 rear sight. Different dimensions of the ladder and the differences in details are visible between the two sights.

Bob Naess

[IMBLITZVT]

Bob,

Thanks very much for the pictures. I see its just like the 1895 gun without the holes... hmm... There are at least two of these sights one there but neither are still attached to the top cover... that is very odd. I will have to keep an eye out for them in historic pictures.

Thanks!

[dwmmg08]

Wow. There a lot of MG-08 activity going on in the forum these days! Makes me wish I actually had one.

There's no time like the present to start looking, ya know...

You can never have too many!

[bmg17a1]

dwmmg08 notes:

>You can never have too many (Maxims)!<

I couldn't agree more! Not much action with this thread any more so here's some provocation. 8^)

Bob Naess

[MarkFinneran]

speechless- is this a dream? How many german WWI MGs are there??!!!

[dwmmg08]

Bob! You're killing me!

All those are live guns, too, aren't they?

I love the 08's! I think I counted 9? Dang! I may just forgo going to Knob and just beg to come visit, It looks like I'd get to see neater stuff there! Wow!

[bmg17a1]

Currently the collection includes about 22 Maxims. I enjoy the WWI guns a lot and am also partial to the Schwarzlose HMGs among others and haven't been able to avoid acquiring as many of the early MGs as I could. Having started in 1970 I had a good headstart on the stratospheric prices currently being asked. Anyway, being an addict, I couldn't not buy MGs, dsepite being ridiculed by my friends early on for giving the government $200 per transfer.
All are welcome to visit at any time, of course, and just give me a head's-up that you might be in the area.

Bob Naess