www.MG42.us

Hello,

I'm a researcher on the Fokker Dr.I and I'm working on research for the AWM on the correct ammo belt for the LMG 08/15.

I'm fairly well versed in this gun and I also have access to one of the largest LMG 08/15 collection in the states.

What I'm looking for is something that is in print that may dictate with was the correct ammo belt used for the LMG 08/15's. I have lots of photographic evidence on what was used on the German aircraft but cant locate anything printed. Even the parts manuals that I have seen for the LMG mainly refer to the MG 08 when describing the parts and operations but is not correct for the LMG 08/15's.

Here is the standard Maxim belt for a MG 08 :


Here is the issue, the belt return tube on Fokker's used a 40mm tube the feed the belt into the return belt box. Since the Maxim 08 belt is 40mm with 60mm spacers make in impossible for this belt to be used. From all the photographs I have looked at only use the 30mm Parabellum belt.



Here is a 30mm Parabellum belt in a 40mm tube like the one in the previous photo.


Now what I'm looking for is something that in print that has the Parabellum belt listed for uses with the LMG 08/15's. Please let me know if you know of anything.

Lloyd...

Hi DARIVS ARCHITECTVS,

I would like too but I don't have the fund to by the engine that would cost $40-60k. I do have friends that have has one are are building several planes Dr.I's, D.VII's and D.VIII's. I would love to help build them for Peter Jackson's WWI collection in NZ. I know some of the guys at the GWAA that puts on a airshow at Wright Pattersone AFB every two years.

Here is a photo helping out a friend in his both at last year show.

On the table is some of his LMG 08/15's and his D.VII frame on the table. Behind me is a Dr.I that is being recovered.



Lloyd...

VERY Cool, I would sure be keen to own one of those LMG 08's.

I am sure this is already been done but have you tried:
http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/ ??

They have quite a community of experts, of course being in The People's Republic of New York we have no Form 4 guns, but networking with the local experts may kick something up.

www.Prussia.us wrote:I am sure this is already been done but have you tried:
http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/ ??
They have quite a community of experts, of course being in The People's Republic of New York we have no Form 4 guns, but networking with the local experts may kick something up.

I wish they had but since Cole died (the original owner of ORA) they don't have anything. I don't even think that have an original LMG gun. Most of the WW1 aviation expert are on the Aerodrome forum an you will find one heck of a thread on the troubles at ORA.

My friend is one of the leading experts on the Spandau LMG 08/15 and he has been helping me with my research but he hasn't come across anything in print yet. This is why I'm asking for all of your help.

Thanks for the ORA lead but that a dead end. I don't think even Peter Jackson with his collection has anything ether as he had model his LMG 08/15 with the Maxim belt.

Here is another photo of a 30 mm two rivet Parabellum belt on a Dr.I that's been pulled from the belt return box by the access hatch on the belt return tube.


Lloyd...

I think you've got the answer as to what belt was used, as the Parabellum belt was already in use with the air service with the Parabellum MG, would work just fine with the Maxim 08/15, and you've already got pictures of it in use. The big question would be how long, of course, but I'm guessing that could be arrived at if you have the weight & balance calculations for the aircraft, some brass cased 154 grain bulleted ammo, and a belt or two.

Sounds like some fun experimentation might be in order!

Hi dwmmg08,

I know I have the answer but the curator at the AWM wants to see it in writing since they have a maxim belt that they say is from the Red Baron's guns.

I did find a list for two belts with 500 rounds each =25 kg. (55 lb.)

I can weigh the two style belts then multiply it to equal a 500 round belt but what I don't know is how much a full loaded cartage weights. It would be interesting to see how close it comes out to what Weyl lists in his book "Fokker The Creative Years"

If you guys have any idea on the weights I'll do the math to see the outcome.

Thanks.

Lloyd...

Interesting on the listing of 500 round belts, something jumped out at me there, wasn't the standard Parabellum belt for the observers spool 500 rounds?

The early Parabellum belts on the E.V's with a single gun had up to 1000 round belts then on twin gun aircraft it went to 500 each.


Start counting......

Lloyd...

Here is a interesting view that shows both down tubes have been removed along with the feed blocks. The return belt tube was held on by two screws (one on each side, front & back). This is one of the modifications on the feed block for a LMG that it had two screw holes on the left side of the block. You can also see the size of the down tube as there is one sitting on top of the gas tank.


Lloyd...

I weighed a 1931 dated 8mm Mauser cartridge with brass shell: 30 grams

I figured later powder and bullet weights may have been different, and this was the oldest 8mm cartridge I had.

Hi John,

I talked to Dolf and he said that I should get in touch with Jen Francois Legendre who I all ready have.

Check me on this:
1 cartage = 30 grams X 1000 = 30,000 grams or 66.13868 lb or 30 kg

Wyle has the total equal 25 kg with the belts. from this I think the cartage would be less or there is always that fact that Wyle's listing is incorrect.

Any one else what to weigh in here.

Lloyd...

Interesting on the LMG feedblock, that's what Matt had already told me, when I had posted some pictures of my gun with one installed of that exact type.

The WWI 7.92 cartridge that they would be using should be S munition, which had a 154 grain bullet, and a brass case. At the very end of the war, sS muniton was brought out, which is a heavier bullet, but was intended in WWI only for use with modified heavy MG's, for ultra long distance fire- as far as I am aware, the proper round should be 154 grain rifle ball. I've got a few loaded WW1 german rounds that would be perfect: I'll try to weigh one, but I'm not sure I have that fine of a scale around here!

Great photo of the two guys loading the Fokker! Start counting indeed!

The belt flapping around in the slipstream would seem to be a possible problem. I'd really hate to be trailing something like that towards my tail surfaces. Did they have a return/pickup reel like a movie projector or something?

The cartridge I weighed was an sS cartridge, which of course is incorrect. I don't have an S cartridge to weigh, but I am reasonably well stocked with manuals - so:

The correct weight for an S cartridge is 23.8 grams. The source manual for this information also has weights of other cartridges (tracer, etc.) too.

dwmmg08 wrote:The belt flapping around in the slipstream would seem to be a possible problem. I'd really hate to be trailing something like that towards my tail surfaces. Did they have a return/pickup reel like a movie projector or something?

Hi dwmmg08,

Here is a photo that will help answer that.

The larger box is the ammo feed box and the smaller box is the belt return box. The belt came out of the feed block into the belt return tube that directed the belt in to the return box. There was no mechanism it just freely fell into the return box.

I wish I had taken a photo of the feed block but the one on your gun does looks the same. I will take a photo the next time I see my friends collection.

Lloyd...

Hi John,

Thank you for looking that up. this look better. Here is the math, please correct me if I'm wrong.

1-S cartridge is equal to 23.8 grams (0.05247002 lb.)

1000 rounds would be 23800 grams or 23.8 kg (52.47002 lb.)

Now we need the belt weights. I think the Maxim belt might be a standard of 250 rounds and the Parabellum belts that I know about are only 100 rounds. My friend has both but I don't know when I can get up to his place.

Here is were we stand.
Total weight of two loaded 500 round belts (from Weyl's listing) 25 kg. (55 lb)
25 kg. (55 lb) -23.8 kg (52.47002 lb.)=1.2 kg (2.645547 lb)(Remainder)

I wounder which belt will come closer this this.(I can't believe you guys don't have this smilie)

Lloyd...

Your site is great! I went through it all,then I had to find one on the D VII too! And yes,we do need that smilie! It is nice to see that the WWI section here has grown so much lately.Good luck in your research! ---bil

Hi Bil,

Thanks. Some years ago there was a Fok. D.VII site but I haven't seen it for sometime. I have a friend that is one of the experts on the D.VII but I don't know if his is going to build a web site. I also have another friend that is a color an markings expert on the D.VII. Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in NY has a D.VII that you can see fly during there air shows there.

Lloyd...

Lloyd,

It seems to me that you have talked to all the experts in the field. JFL and Bob Naess and Dave Watts... maybe David will write in as he has a great collection too and might be able to help.

It seems they used a few style belts and I don't know that you will ever be able to find out a 100% correct answer. It seems they used what worked and what they had to use at the time. Probably used Parabelum belts early one and moved to the MG08 style belts later... its just hard to say. You have a great group of pictures that give you lots of historical background. Other then looking for more pictures, it does not seem like you are going to be able to find a better answer... I wish I could help more.

I have two LMG08/15 parts kits and I have talked to Dave Watts several times about them. One is #422b with a #492 topcover if I recall. The other is a 1917 gun matching. My 422b gun has the feedblock drilled like the one Glen showed. Actually I tried to talk him into trading me the one he has for use on my other LMG which came without a feedblock. Maybe in the future!

It seems with so much of this Maxim stuff... the truth of what was actually done back then is quickly fading into history! So many repros, and repaints and fakes... who really knows on a lot of this stuff anymore. The odds of finding a piece of info that writes out what kind of belt the aircraft used... it probably just never existed at all. The only way I could think to find that info is to looking for what the air units were supplied with... order forms, delivery tickets... that kind of thing as no manuals seem to do into that kind of detail...

The question also comes to mind... why aren't the pictures good enough proof? Manuals were not always followed so even if they did list the belt in there... who said they actually used it anyway?