existance or lact thereof of boxes,and discussion of same

[cobra]

The belts for the MG-08 would be a great seller as well as oil caps for the grips. Another would be the boxes for the sled mounts. There are many sled mounts that are missing the boxes, I put out a feeler some time back to see if there was a demand for the range plates and even engraved a few for some of the forum members. I checked to see if a laser copy company would make them and they said it would be very easy but,No one seemed to be interested so we dropped the idea. Twenty years from now who will be able to tell what is fake and what is OLD stock.???? COBRA

[IMBLITZVT]

Cobra,

A lot of the sleds were made without those small boxes, we think late war. So replacing them would make the mount historically wrong. I agree on the rest!

[LA MITRAILLE]

Cobra,

A lot of the sleds were made without those small boxes, we think late war. So replacing them would make the mount historically wrong. I agree on the rest!

For me i don't know if there are a lot of sleds without boxes, when i have seen one without boxes, it was reichwehr or for a other country (turkish and polnish), but not german WWI. In france they say the same think than you, "end of war"; it's the easy way!!!

I have seen a lot of sledmount coming from ground's battlefield, and i have a lot of original pictures with MG, but i still not see any sledmount without boxes. I don't say it doesn't exist during WWI, but i never see one

Best regards
david

[IMBLITZVT]

David,

From what we have seen in the US and pictures of sleds in Europe, it seems to me about 35% of the remaining sleds are missing one or more of the oil/grease, barrel or small parts box. It does not seem to be a very small percent. Its was my understanding/thinking that no sleds were made post WWI. The ones we see with curved range plates, T&E stops...etc. were modified post WWI by the Germans as they upgraded all the guns with AA sights, Squeeze triggers...etc. It was also my understanding that Turkey never had Sleds made for them but like poland, received some post WWI in arms deals.

I think I have seen some of the sleds without boxes WWI dated. Actually is your's Glen? This would seem to indicated that they made without the boxes during WWI. I will have to look into this more.

The other reason I think this is idea of later war production is probably correct, is that very few post WWI German Maxim items made it into the USA. Mostly locks and barrels. Everything else is extremely rare. It is fairly common to see sleds in the US without boxes. If they were post WWI, I don't think there would be hardly any in the US.

I have not thought to pay attention when I have been looking at WWI pictures... so you are probably correct there are not many pictures with these sleds. However about the time the Germans were taking short cuts on production is probably about the time film was running low.... just a thought.

That all said, you are correct, we are just guessing at this point. I will look into your idea more and see if I can prove or disprove it.

[dwmmg08]

Matt, I've checked a number of sleds now, and I am certain that the sleds without the oil boxes and spare parts boxes were made late in the war, perhaps only by one maker, but they are surprisingly common over here in the US. Mine is from Artillerie Werkstatt Spandau, as are most of them, and is 1918 dated, and is clearly marked as a German WWI sled, but is missing the spare parts box and the oil box. They weren't knocked off, they were never there. I have seen several like this now.

I like you, think no sleds were made post war, but the tripods probably were, I think. They were definately were refurbished post war, and heavily modified. Tripods were clearly made by the French and others, for export and for use with their guns.

That said, i think what COBRA was talking about was the LOCK boxes, which are supposed to be on every sled, and many of them are missing, in terrible condition, or even missing the lids. Someone could re-manufacture the lock boxes, and I think, sell a number of them. I have also seen some of the Oil boxes which are frankly, rotted right through; a replacement one would seem to be in order there too. For that matter, a simple thing to reproduce that Iv'e noticed seems to have taken a terrific beating on many sleds is the wood; both the handles, the little wood pieces in the lock boxes, and the parts under the sled. One would think a replacement wood set would not be that bad an idea.

I've also noticed a whole lot of the sleds in the US are bent slightly on one back leg, as if the whole shipment was at one time handled by some doofus who threw them off a truck, railcar, ship, or something. Hard to say when that would have been, but I suspect it was with the effort to bring them back to the US right after the war, when they were apparently unloaded and stored outside at one of the eastern arsenals.

[dwmmg08]

I think I have seen some of the sleds without boxes WWI dated. Actually is your's Glen? This would seem to indicated that they made without the boxes during WWI. I will have to look into this more.

The other reason I think this is idea of later war production is probably correct, is that very few post WWI German Maxim items made it into the USA. Mostly locks and barrels. Everything else is extremely rare. It is fairly common to see sleds in the US without boxes. If they were post WWI, I don't think there would be hardly any in the US.

I think you're correct on the bigger items like the Sleds, the other option would be the post-WWII surplus boom, and there were some imported then, I think from Finland or one of the Nordic Countries if I recall correctly, but I doubt there were very many of them brought in then. Lots of other items, (apparently all the live .303 Lewis guns in the country for example) were brought in in the 50's as well, but the there simply weren't that many 08's out there to bring in. There are a number of 08/15s out there that came in then, along with a number of drums, and stuff for them, but notably fewer than you see from the 1919 set. As the Germans had collected up the 08/15's and 08's they captured, and either installed them in bunkers on the West Wall (and cannibalized the sleds to do so) or gave them to formations fighting with them, I suspect a lot of the modified 08/15's and 08's simply got scrapped, either with the stuff in the fortifications, or stuck behind the iron curtain like most of the Schwarzlose's.

Incidentally, there was a LOT of stuff stuck over there. One of my friends fathers was an officer in the Polish army in the 1970's, 80's and 90's, and recalled very specifically that they had an entire tunnel at the old Prussian fortress of Graudenz which was filled floor to ceiling with Prussian cavalry Sabers, carefully preserved for decades. He was in supply then, and recalled that they decided to use the tunnel as secure storage for the (at the time much more important) spare computer equipment for the FROG missile launchers that the Polish army had. Therefore: All the sabres were cleaned out, and as It was decided that they would be too much work to transport to smelt, thrown in the river apparently the Vistula. A number of other people involved may have kept one or two, but there were apparently thousands that went in the river, along with a number of crates of 8mm ammo. Now they have worthless outdated soviet era computer equipment, and would rather have the swords!

[IMBLITZVT]

I think you're correct on the bigger items like the Sleds, the other option would be the post-WWII surplus boom, and there were some imported then, I think from Finland or one of the Nordic Countries if I recall correctly, but I doubt there were very many of them brought in then.

The Finns sold/traded most of their 8mm maxims to Poland during the inter-war years, for Russian 1910s. The Polish had 8mm German arms and the Finns used 7.62x54r. Of course there are some SA marked German items. However the Finns tend to mark just about everything with "SA" as the 1910 supply in our country shows. I have seen very very few German "SA" marked items. Plus why would you import something already in great supply in the USA at the time. The one thing we know was imported was barrels and locks in large numbers. Thats why it seems like 33% of the locks and barrels we see are Nazi marked. However you never see any other items marked! I figure all the Polish guns got captured by the Germans and Russians. So I tend to think we are not seeing many guns from either Finland or Poland.

Now I know IMA got some MG08s (mainly) from Turkey with all their Maxim items. I have seen one or two of these guns as they have the same kind of AA sights as the Vickers guns the Turks modified. However I doubt they got many or any Sleds from the Turks as they mainly used tripods. As far German style Maxim Parts in the US today, I think about 85% were brought back from Germany by the GIs or US government following WWI. 7% were brought in post WWII by imports (mainly barrels and locks), 7% are from IMA, and 1% misc.
If we are just talking Sleds I am thinking 99% brought back by GIs or US Government following WWI. I know of only about 2-3 post WWI modified Sleds in the US today.

Now I know David has done lots of research looking at historic photos. Why those sleds without boxes are not showing up in WWI photos, I don't know and will start to look for myself from now on.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents...

[Bil]

Perhaps a database is needed,with the year,manufacturor,existance of boxes,etc,to get an idea of what is really out there,including pictures.Also check where the boxes should be for any signs they were removed.The more info in one place,the easier to compare. ---bil

[dwmmg08]

The Finns sold/traded most of their 8mm maxims to Poland during the inter-war years, for Russian 1910s. The Polish had 8mm German arms and the Finns used 7.62x54r. Of course there are some SA marked German items. However the Finns tend to mark just about everything with "SA" as the 1910 supply in our country shows. I have seen very very few German "SA" marked items. .

That is correct pre WWII, they did trade all that with the Poles. I'd thought, though, that Interarmco bought some 08/15s and other German maxim equipment in the 50's from the Finns; I'd always thought those were provided to them circa WWII by the Germans, the Finns were hardly above using non-standard caliber in their army, as shown by all the Chauchats they bought. Service Armament is clearly advertising them in the 50's as well. One question I've had about all that is, though, that while I have seen SA marked German ammo cans, barrel carriers, and lots of other items, I have yet to see German maxims, barrels, or locks marked that way; yet there are pictures of troops in Finland with them. My best guess on that is that these later German maxims that may have been sold by them later were not used by the Finns at all; they were used by the (second class on supply?) German divisions that were on the Finnish front, and surrendered there to the Finns when the Finns elected to get out of the war and sign a separate peace with Stalin. A large number of German troops were disarmed by them and sent on at that time. The other possiblilty is that they were in Norway, as part of the equipment of the Norway garrison of German troops, were left there when the Germans left, and the Norwegians sold them to Interarmco, or even traded them to the Finns who did- hard to say.

[LA MITRAILLE]

Not easy to pronounce with certainty, I looked again at all the photos with sleds, already it is necessary to find there where we see them boxes! Most of the time, we see them of front. Then, we see many more photos of the war beginning than the end not easy!!!!
This said I did not see photos with sleds without boxes, I looked on the net, " Polish maxim "; identical, the same difficulties.....

Best still it is to make as said bill, to make a database and I am on that we would be amazed!I think that all sledmounts without oil boxes are not all made in 1918

Best Regards
david

[cobra]

Gentlemen: O.K. Lets stop the so called HISTORY LESSON of where these darn sled mounts came from and if they had boxes or not. The original question was, Where can you find cheaper feed blocks,?I made the mistake of asking where could you obtain other parts for the sled and it has snowballed into another subject all together different than the original subject. If you want to come up as to where these things came from write a book.If you know how and where lock boxes,oilers and etc can be obtained to complete the sleds that had them, then lets hear from you. I could give a tinkers damn about the ones that didn,t have any of the items that some of them came with. Now if I have made you history buffs mad so be it. Keep to the original subject,or start another SUBJECT. COBRA

[cobra]

Matt,Is this the most intelligent reply you could come up with or is your grade school education coming through ?I am sure with all of your prior comments you could address the subject with a constructive solution.We are asking for information not childish comments. If you don,t have anything to say Please say NOTHING. COBRA

[JBaum]

Wow, somebody needs to get laid.

Cobra,

Posting the first message in a new thread does not mean that you own this thread or this subject. We ARE allowed to digress a bit, and it happens. It's not a turd on your plate, so get a grip. Sometimes threads progress past their original subject. Be nice. Nobody here is aggravating you on purpose, you just act like it. If you don't want to read somebody else's reply, don't. If you don't get a reply that you want, that's life. Adjust, and quit insulting people.

We don't like it, and I for one am tired of your bad attitude if someone doesn't respond the way you think they should. Nobody here gives crap to the others like you have. It's bad manners, unpleasant, and unnecessary. Grow up.

And if you'll look on your keyboard just to the left of the return key, you'll see an apostrophe. Gee, now you don't have to use a comma when you type a contraction.

And there's no need to leave us one of those messages that tells us WE'VE caused YOU to not come back here anymore. Unless you change your attitude, WE don't care. If you want to be nice, you're welcome here. Otherwise, find a new punching bag.

[IMBLITZVT]

Cobra, threads go the way of the discussion. Just because you start it does not mean that our reply must answer only the post's questions. Insulting us and making unnecessary and uncalled for rude posts will not help you get the info you seek. A much better way would be to thank everyone for responding to your post (even if you did not find it useful) and ask the question again, maybe in a different way or maybe with some of the info you have been given. Sometimes there are no useful reply because no one has an answer.

"The original question was, Where can you find cheaper feed blocks,?"

Maybe I am missing it but where in the original post does it ask this question??? This is not the first question from you about finding cheap parts. I know I will never have an answer for you because if I knew, I would buy them myself! If I had to many I would resell them at market rate! Most here would do the same. Its like asking where can you give someone 99 cents and have them give you a buck back. There is no source for cheap parts for any maxim, in this country or Europe! Maybe if you can get into the Russian's stock pile! The only answer is to search and find someone who does not know what he has and has priced it to low. Just finding these parts is hard enough. Finding them real cheap is just luck at this point!

Now maybe you can have your machinist buddy make you one for some cheap price like he did the lock. However that is about the only way it will happen without getting lucky and just coming across one cheap. Even Russian feedblocks, if you can find one, are bringing about $300!

"If you know how and where lock boxes,oilers and etc can be obtained to complete the sleds that had them, then lets hear from you."

I have an old beater sled with two lock boxes still on it. No doors and the insides are rough. However I do not plan on just giving them away either. If you are interested PM me. Lock box doors, oilers and other rare parts of the sled are all hard to find. We are all looking for them too. My guess is that with that last reply, any of us that had them would be just a little less willing to offer them for sale. You did yourself no favor there!

Well I think I addressed the parts of your reply worth responding to. If you continue to post like this I think you will quicky find that no one will respond, even if they can help. The other thing I fail to understand is that you seem to be very well off... buying planes and donating everything to museums, why is there such a need to find them cheap? Why not just be willing to pay market rate?

[Bil]

You might want to check the point where I broke the thread-it was at the spot where repro and missing boxes were first mentioned-now the first post on THIS thread! ---bil

[jmann]

Wow, I am away for a few days and I miss a pertty good discussion. I would simply like to say to Cobra if you take offense at a historical discussion spawned by the mention of some parts you are going to reproduce, then I feel you are in the wrong circle of friends. I think you need to go find a happy place and think about the proper way to have a grown up conversation with other adults. You might actually learn the difference in a few items for one of your museum exhibits.

[IMBLITZVT]

Well that sure killed the conversation...

[IMBLITZVT]

David,

I think I found a picture from 1918 with a sled with no boxes. Look at the left most gun in the front:



Source:
http://www.kaiserscross.com/76001/65801.html

What do you think?

[IMBLITZVT]

A close up:

[Bil]

Very nice pics-thanks! Any idea of the context? The date is just after the war-i wonder if these were captured or were part of the material brought out with the retreat.I think it may have been too early to have been part of the war reparations.I wonder does 'Heimat' used here refer to the 'home' or barracks of that outfit,or does it refer to Germany itself,which would be more correctly 'Heimatland'.Interesting nonetheless. ---bil