MG08 Armor Original or Repro? Can you tell?

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:54 am

Ok guys, as you know I am redoing my sled. I have recently got some new items (so don't go off prior knowledge). Both items have been stripped and primed with lead base Orange (red) Primer. So Repro or not???

Post by **www.Prussia.us** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:00 am

Imblitz I hate to pollute the thread as a greeny, but here is a dumb question, are the sled components replete with little proofs (which I realize can be faked) like the 08 parts (or for that matter all Imperial gun parts)? ?

I cannot comment on their authenticity, other than be sure to save the lead paint you have left over in case the Chinese want to buy it off from you to use as an additive in the next batch of pet treats.

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:17 am

Some of the sled parts have proofs but its pretty much limited to the mechanical items. The armor and larger components tend not to have them. You see them much more when something has to pass a real inspection, ie, T&E components and gun parts.

I tell you what this lead paint is good stuff! I would paint my house with it if I could. The whole anti-Lead paint thing is very over done. So long as you are not breathing it constantly... But the paints we have today are worthless. These lead paints lasted like paint should.

cobra · Post by **cobra** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:13 pm

I bought three sets from IMA a few months ago, These look the same and I was told that they were made. in India. No matter they still work great on the gun and sled mount even though we had a little trouble putting the front shield on the mount,you have to hold your mouth just right. The sled mounts we have now have the makers name stamped on the right top of the sled and a serial number, on the left top is the date. Maker,. DURKOPP They still make sewing machines.Cobra,

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:59 pm

Cobra, Yeah IMAs are repro for sure. If you look closely they are different from the originals and not as well made. Still a good deal for the money but I just hate that IMA lies to you about it.

Post by **dwmmg08** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Comparing to the original armor of mine, the sled armor looks good from the pictures shown. I would guess it's the real thing, there should be a little "key" that fits through the slot to lock it in place below the axel, that on mine was just a "T" shaped cut out piece of metal, like of some left over armor plate, and with a hole drilled in it for a cotter pin on the long part of the "T" to lock it on the sled. About as complicated as a club.

The jacket armor I am less certain of, but it looks good- I'm just really not sure on it. The only reason I voted it was original was the pointed rivets holding it all together, I'm not sure the repros have that. There are many repros out there, I just don't think they're this style, and this is one that I've seen a lot in pictures, so I'm going to go with it's original.

Pretty good paint! Whereever did you find lead paint???

Looks like neat stuff!

And no, the armor wasn't always proofed, or marked as to maker, and I really couldn't tell you why. Most of them I've seen are not. :photos:

Glen

Post by **dwmmg08** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:22 pm

hey, what are the little items on either side of the folded down piece on the sled armor on the back??? Don't recall those being there like that. Are they thread nuts??? IF so, I'd might have to change to repro. Think all mine were riveted.

Glen

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:50 pm

dwmmg08 wrote:hey, what are the little items on either side of the folded down piece on the sled armor on the back??? Don't recall those being there like that. Are they thread nuts??? ...:

Nope they are the back of rivets. Most of the rivets were ground flush except these two.

If you need some Red Lead primer, I can hook you up! Its $5 a can which is a hell of a deal! PM or email me for details.

Post by **Blanksguy** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:57 pm

Of the three MG08s that I owned over thyears.....and about six sled-mounts......the armour looks very similar to the originals that I sold with my last MG-08 that went up to the state of Montana.

Yes.......some original armour-plate pcs. for the MG-08 do have manufacturer-markings.....especially the front-water-jacket-armour......stamped on the few examples that I had with odd-shapped markings on the rear.

Does your water-jacket-top-armour allow the installation of the standard front water-jacket-armour-plate (?)...."AND" center the optical-view for the gunner through the rear and front "open-sights (?) (...the ZF-12 looked over the armour). By "centered I mean that the open-sights looked through the center of the hole......that was one of the "tells" on repo armour if they didn't match up centered.
Also.....how is your full left and right "traverse" of the gun with these mounted (?).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:38 pm

Richard,

"Ihow is your full left and right "traverse" of the gun with these mounted "

How does that matter?

I see what you are saying on the other way to check.

Thanks!

Post by **Blanksguy** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:42 pm

...on the traverse....years ago I had one of IMA's repo-sets that you couldn't traverse the full left nor right that the Sled-Mount would allow without the repo-armour.
Try it and let me know what you think.

And while it is mounted, check "centering" of open-sights through the armour-plates hole w/front-water-jacket-armour mounted behind "Booster"....or if you don't have a front-plate....with the front-sight centered in the slot for the top-water-jacket-armour.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Post by **dwmmg08** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:47 am

Good call Richard, I didn't know some of the repro's don't line up with the sights or function like they should. That should be a dead giveaway it's a repro if that doesn't work.

I've seen some armor proofed, but also not. Since the Imperial Germans usually proofed or stamped literally everything, it is a little odd that some of the MG08 armor's not stamped with at least the makers mark. Perhaps the ones lacking anything in the metal originally were stamped, but as an ink stamp or something, not metal stamps???

Glen

Post by **Blanksguy** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:56 pm

On the armour in question.......my impressions are:

1: The inner-sled-armour:
The rivets and overall style seems correct........knowing item can be reproduced........this is a harder item to fake due to the cast-brackets.......if the metal seems hard or "rings" when hung on rope and tapped with something metal.....then I'm about 95% sure that it is original. ....even though missing the small "T" retainer.
I question the two rivets that are longer at the rear....mine didn't have these.

2: The top-water-jacket-armour:
The rivets are "off" from the example that I owned......and from the couple of more-visable photos in "Dolf's" books.......they were shown as rounded at the front (not pointed) and just flatened at the rear. Along with the idea that someone "matched" the rivets to those on the sled-inner-armour-plate.
The bottoms of the skirts at the rear seem to be a touch too wide......and I would venture to say it will not allow full-traverse when mounted in a sled-mount.
Centering of open-sights would have to be checked.
On this item.....I would tend to believe that it was a reproduction....by 80% (I leave 20% open as you never know.....more checking of known examples and photos would have to be checked.).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:35 am

Guys, Very good info.

Now I have pictures saved of this MG08 Armor. It came with a large MG08 package (gun, sled, scopes... almost everything....) I was told it is original. It also has the pointed rivets.

So if I am understanding correctly the repro armor sides are to wide and limit the traverse? Is that correct? Does anyone have a measurement of how thick there armor is where is narrows in at the bottom of the shield?

Oh and I do have the T pin for the Sled Armor.

Thanks guys,
Matt

Post by **Blanksguy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:05 am

The OD-Grren painted Armour that you just posted photos of......with the shield mounting rivets that have "nuts on the rear is "Reproduction".

Guys....remember, IMA (and another company) had these made up about 15+ years ago.....they have now tried to make them look more original.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

cobra · Post by **cobra** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:16 am

It is finally coming to the point that these repro parts are getting harder to tell from original. This forum is great in that we still have the OLD hands to help the younger members improve their collections by being able to tell FAKE from the real thing. I believe it,s time that we push IMA and other fake parts companies to identify just what they are selling. COBRA

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:34 pm

Well since this thread has died down, now I guess I can let you know...

The Sled armor is original and the Jacket armor is an IMA repro that I have been working on. Yeah I have those pointed rivets made to match others that I thought were correct. Sure makes you look twice don't it? I guess I need to look for more pictures of this armor because as you said cobra, it may not be correct with points. I think I have seen the sled armor come both ways...

Thanks for the info on the Traverse limits on the repro armor. I will grind that down so I get my full traverse! I just thought thats the way it was.

Thanks for the info guys and I have to say I was very impressed with the replies!

Post by **MarkFinneran** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:57 pm

Matt I am sorry to be a party pooper - but I think both pieces are repro. There is talk this end about items made in Vietnam. There is talk of Turkish made pieces for Turkish used 08s.
The 2 original sets of 08 armour I have ever seen and held had German stamps/makers markings. I personally lean towards the fact that nigh on everything was stamped. If the German factory system marked the nuts and bolts used to clamp the ZF12 sight rail to the main body of an 08 then the inner shield is almost a certainty. Each water jacket front shield (that slips over the foresight) has markings too.
They are great pieces, but the pointy rivets do not bear out in period photos.
Mark

Post by **IMBLITZVT** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:58 pm

Mark,

I am about 99% sure the front armor is original. It came on my sled from an auction. There was 80 years of dirt and dust on it. I had to vacuum it off. It was painted the same colors at the rest of the sled and the sled has not been painted since at least the 30s. I am as sure its an original piece as one could be without a makers mark on it... Also the quality is there... the repros are just not this nice. I mean its possible that anything is a repro but I am as sure as one could be that this is not. At the very least I am 100% sure its not a repro from the post WWII era. I guess you might be able to talk me into some interwar production but even this is very unlikely. My sled came from New England and has unit markings from WWI reg that fought the Americans. Its very very likely this sled came straight to the US at the end of WWI.

I mean with all this non marked items... its getting to the point were it is about impossible to tell for sure...

Post by **Blanksguy** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:13 pm

On the "original" MG-08 "Inner-Sled-Armour-Plate" that came with the gun that I bought about 1995......the armour was original to the sled and had never been removed when it was repainted years after WWII....the original paint was under the coats of "re-painting.

Mine was like the inner-shield that you posted the photos of.....I just don't remember the two revet-heads at the rear. It did not have any manufcturer's markings/codes that I could ever find......but it was secured to the sled with the origian "T" lock and wire.

I'm pretty sure that his "Inner-Plate" for the MG-08 Sled Mount is original .....again, due to the cast-brackets for the larger "Otter-Shield".

Talking about "Outter-Shields"......we can "stir-the-pot" here.......I'm told by a collector that there is only one (1) original "Outter-Shield" in the USA that was "dug" over in Europe and then shipped back several years ago.
I do know that Rick-Keller or Great-War-Militaria had a few sets of outter shields made as he needed one for the their display in Chambersberg, PA........they came with repo-doors and mounted onto that sled "Inner-Plate". Was an impressive display when put together.
I sold the one I had with some Maxim parts-kit to a guy that drove up from Texas to Oklahoma where I was living at the time to purchase that "lot".

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

www.MG42.us