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Nice old A/T rifle ---bil

Here are some pictures of my M1918 Mauser and the cases I'm making to be able to shoot the gun again. The cases are made from aluminum and use shotgun shell 209 primers while the projectiles are 500 gr. .43 Caliber cast bullets placed in a plastic sabot machined down to 13mm. The bullet has to be loaded first and then the case is chambered on the bullet seated in the chamber. I have only test fired without projectile in back yard but will take to range in Dec. (Closest range is 100 miles one way.)

Bill

I always liked that big AT Mauser. Got to handle one at the Camp Ripley Military Museum here in MN. I do the occasional repair job on their guns there as a volunteer. (I was a Roman reenactor that last Memorial Day public event there, and pictures of me without my armour like this make Bil über-jealous of my shapely gams).

Interesting.

I have read about the WWII a/t rifles but never saw one and never thought too much about how it all works.

Anyone care to educate me how a rifle is able to punch into steel?

I know they have longer barrels...maybe the charge is kicked up a few notches and I imagine the bullet and payload are different then a normal ball.

Was the aluminum case something needed sepecifically or was it just a cost saving method?

Is the payload like the molten copper 'bombs' that melt into hard targets?

This is a WWI German AT rifle, and it can punch through 1/2" steel, and probably more. It was great at punching holes in the engines of Mk IV male and female British tanks, but the soldiers who used it didn't like it much because of it's weight and the huge recoil. The rounds are simple hardened steel for penetraton. It was meant to penetrate armour and kill the engine. Most tanks of that time were so slow they were annihilated by artillery and never made it to the enemy treches.

noonxnoon wrote:Interesting.

I have read about the WWII a/t rifles but never saw one and never thought too much about how it all works.

Anyone care to educate me how a rifle is able to punch into steel?

I know they have longer barrels...maybe the charge is kicked up a few notches and I imagine the bullet and payload are different then a normal ball.

Was the aluminum case something needed sepecifically or was it just a cost saving method?

Is the payload like the molten copper 'bombs' that melt into hard targets?

Anti-Tank rifles are normally heavier rifles than the standard infantry rifle. They use high to very high velocity projectiles to punch through armor and create casualties either by direct fire or by creating more shrapnel inside the vehicle. Hardened steel cores or better yet, tungsten carbide cores allow the high velocity projectile to penetrate hard armor by basically punching a hole in it. Just imagine drilling holes in steel plate and see it happening in milliseconds rather than minutes. That is where high velocity can go.


The mauser rifle pictured used a 13.2mm projectile with a weight of somewhere around 650-750 grains travelling at 2500+ feet per second. There are other A/T rifles firing smaller projos at higher velocity and still others firing larger projos at lower velocity. There are a number of other A/T rifles that were in general use, for examples.... I have a british Boys rifle in caliber .50 US. The guns were originally in .55 Boys but many in the US have been converted to avoid registration as DD's. The .50 US is very similar in projectile weight and velocity to the original round. They were pretty ineffective against real tanks by the time they were built but they were used with good effect against light armor and pillboxes. The .50 cal is a lightweigh as A/T rifles go with a projectile weight of 690 grains at 2800+ fps. Recoil with the muzzle brake and fired off the bipod is about like a 12Ga firing buckshot. I have a Russian PTRS that fires a 14.5mm round. The gun weighs 43 lb and has the same recoil impulse as my 20mm gun. I've not fired this one as ammo is too expensive to shoot and I'm scared of it. It fires a 960gr projo at 3200fps. My buddies father who commanded a Hetzer in Russia during the war told me that they would frequently find holes in the engine compartment from these rifles after battles. That was a problem for a lot of the A/T rifles, punching holes didn't do much good unless something vital was hit. I also have a 20mm solothurn A/T rifle which fires a 20mm 2300gr projo at 2450 fps. The gun weighs 118lb and recoil is not bad. It looks bad but I'd rather shoot 100 rounds from this thing than 100 from a 12ga slug gun. I've fired the Mauser 13.2mm rifle with loads that duplicate the original and they are not nearly as bad to shoot as most guys think. The rifles are heavy and normally bipod mounted so a lot of recoil is absorbed by something besides you.

In the beginning the normal infantry rifle with A/P ammo would penetrate a tank but as tanks up armored the guns became larger until they could no longer be carried by humans. Shaped charges nullified the armor better and could be put into much smaller and more carryable packages too. From the 13.2mm Mauser rifle to the Solothurn 20mm rifle was a series of steps. All the steps were usually a few behind the armor thickness of the targets the guns were designed to stop.

I believe the reason for the aluminum cases our friend is making is that aluminum is easy to machine and he is not looking to duplicate the original rounds ballistics. He just wants to shoot the rifle. Ammo is no longer available for this gun as it was not used much beyond WWI. The case was used as a basis for the Patrone 318 which was necked down to 8mm, fired a tungsten projo at over 4000fps and wore out the throat of the barrel quite rapidly. That ammo was not carried past WWII. I've seen guys make cases from mild steel and brass for their Mausers in order to get full velocity. The guns are accurate and great fun to shoot.

Hope that answers some of your questions. The picture is of a Solothurn S18-1000 20mm Anti-Tank rifle next to a PE57 7.5mm rifle and a SIG AMT .308 rifle. All 3 rifles are Swiss semi autos.

Frank

I'd love to own a PTRS! Awesome A/T gun!

First off...

Frank...

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Now thats a rifle!

wow! that 20mm is mean looking!

Thanks for sharing the picture of them. A/T is definatly in the exotic category and to find someone knowledgable of them is a unique thing.

Thanks alot Darivs & Frank for enlightening me about how all of this works.

I guessed by the 1918 stamp it wasn't hitting a Tiger, etc...but still to have a round punch through 1/2" of steel at a distance back then is an interesting fact.

This concept marries up three items of interest for me.

I always was interested in tanks...WWII German tanks of course has my highest interest

...being on this board you can guess firearms is of high interest

...then add a dash of German history & WWI & II...

hmm...but it does seem a bit morbid to combine them all!

thanks again guys for sharing the knowledge. One of the rewarding things of having firearms as a hobby is there is such a diversity in what you could shoot or study...revolvers, semis, bolt action, SA, f/a, shotguns, blackpowder, a/t

not to hijack the thread but here are a couple pics of the PTRS.

Pics of the rifle receiver section compared to a standard "full size" SKS as well as a comparison of bolt carriers. Also a picture compared to an RPD which is a pretty good sized light machinegun.









You can see the cartridge in between the RPD and the PTRS.

Hope you like them...

Frank

Where else can you get not one picture,but many pictures of THREE differant guns.Most sites you would find a fuzzy photo from an old magazine.Here are 3 taken just this year.With the history to go with them.The one I took the pic of is in the French Military museum at the Invallides in Paris,next to Napoleons tomb. ---bil

Sorry Bil,
I'll get the picture of the Boys rifle when I get home. I don't have any on this computer.....
the pic of the solo and the SIG's is from my backyard and the PTRS is in the shop. If the weather is nice I'll get the Boys in the backyard. Museums have some cool stuff but they seem to screw up descriptions and ID on a lot of stuff. Addicts like us are a little more interested in the details. I had to sell the French 25mm Puteaux to buy the property I live on now. It wasn't really a rifle anyway....it had wheels.

Frank

.This board isn't JUST about MG-34/42. A/T rifles have always fascinated me. Maybe someday I'll get one. I like the PTRS especially. Lotsa power. The PanzerBuchse 39 lacked some punch.

The S18-1000 is a fascinating rifle. Next time at a gun show find the book guy and look for the Propaganda Series book titles "German Anti-Tank Weapons:Panzerbuchse, Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck." There is a terrific picture in the book of a Soluthern in service with the German army in Russia.

I have a lead on a PE57

Not a anti-tank rifle, but I did just get this:

DARIVS ARCHITECTVS wrote:Where did you find a Panzerschreck 54? NICE !

You just have to know where to shop . Oh, and dumb luck also helps. A guy I know had it and put it on gunbroker for some high dollar price ($3500.) After it didn't sell I made a deal and bought it with the inert round that came from a museum from the former East Germany (or so his story goes).

Bunker militaria has one for sale now on their web site.

PTRS
great pictures guys.

Never thought one could own such firearms.

When I think of an a/t rife, the PTRS is the one that I envision.

One question, are you guys able to shoot anything with it, or is it you try to machine something and load 'normal' cartridges?

Can't imagine the cost or where you would shoot it if you could get the proper ammo.

Reminds me when I was in Kansas, about 20 or so years ago at a gunshow I could have bought a mortar. Not sure the cost of that, but the live shells were $80 a pop.

was alot of money back then...and I thought where would I shoot a mortar and not end up going to jail???

one more realstic item I should have bought back then was a 50 cal Browning with tripod for 3k...I knew I should have bought it!

ah well

All these guns with bores over .5" are perfectly legal in the US as long as they are registered. They are classified as Destructive devices and require the same paperwork as a machinegun or silencer. My FFL allows me to deal in and manufacture MG's , Silencers, Short barreled rifles and AOW's but for DD's I have to pay the same tax as any normal Joe for transfers or manufacturing using a form 1.

The costs of shooting a lot of these are relative. Most of them don't get fired a lot but the cost per round is high. 100rds through the bolt action can cost you $50 or you can fire a round or two from a big rifle. I reload the 20mm for the Solothurn and there are guys who have made steel, stainless steel and brass cases for these guns. I've got 25 or 30 original cases and 20 or so stainless ones. I've got a few original cases that have been fired 7 times or more. Powder is available as pull down powder from the US 20mm vulcan as are the projectiles. We have to turn the driving bands down on the US projos since the groove diameter on the US stuff is bigger than the european spec.

On the Boys rifle in either .50 or .55 there is ammo available as well as projectiles though the .55 projos are not too common and frequently are made from barstock bronze, brass or ledloy steel.

The PTRS is another story altogether. I can make projos with ease but there is no powder in the US that is suitable for loading this round. I know guys who tried the US 20mm vulcan powder but its a bit fast for the round and in cold weather can cause problems. The russians used a very large grain size powder in the WWII ammo and it was pretty slow. The WWII rifles are not something I'm willing to risk experimenting with as the bomb of the 14.5mm round could do some serious damage if it popped wrong. The locking system of the PTRS is not super strong. Thats another reason I don't shoot that one. I do have a .50 cal barrel in the works for the PTRS so it can be fired safely. Its a back burner project though as I'm buried in paying work right now.

I have a 60mm mortar and we shoot it a lot. It is very cool and doesn't need nearly as much room as any rifle or even pistol. I can set it up in the front yard and shoot at a flag we put 100yds down range. The individual mortar rounds are not required to be registered unless they contain more than 1/4oz of explosive. We shoot practice rounds mostly and they are cast iron weighing about 3.5lb. They are propelled by a 20ga plastic shell primed normally with a shotgun primer and loaded with pistol/shotgun powder. These cases are pressed into the fin assembly for the mortar bomb. The fins screw onto the bomb and the whole shebang is dropped down the tube to fire. The primer hits the firing pin at the bottom of the tube and sets off the powder. The powder burns building pressure and blows out the sides of the shell case venting through the ports in the fin assembly. The gas pressure pushes the bomb out of the tube like any other gas propelled projo.

So there you go. You can do any of the above if you live in the US in most states. If you live in the peoples republik of kommiefornia, illinois or a couple other kommie states you are prohibited.


Other artillery rounds are fired with some frequency but the ATF declared the artillery powder to be an explosive rather than a propellant so you need a license to buy it now and its a real pain. Another good reason to stick with the small large guns. My 25mm Puteaux used 1/4lb of powder per shot where the 20mm Solo is about 12rds to the pound.

hope that answers some questions and gets you thinking.

Frank
Here are a couple pics of the mortar and some ammo for the others.






this one is 20mmX138B original ammo, my reload, a .50 US round and a tiny .308 round.

Frank,

Once again, totally impressed.

Never thought I could share mortar stories with anyone!

I figured in KS, I'd mount it in the back of a pickup truck, lob a couple of shells and drive the hell off fast!

(KIDDING!!)

It sounds like you got plenty of leg room for it and know how to use it. Bet it is pretty fun to lob some off.

Does it create a little hole where it lands?

My hat is off to you for your knowledge of reloading exotic ammo and knowledge of 'unconventional' systems.

Wish you were in PA...would love to see all this stuff you got in action!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and the pictures, much appreciated

I'm happy to give back some of what I was given in knowledge and experience from the older guys I knew. Glad there is someone who wants to know this stuff still out there.


Shooting the mortar is a 2 man job because of the reason you pointed out probably without knowing it. The mortar bomb makes a small hole when it hits if the ground is anything but concrete. Our normal charge that will send a bomb to a max range of 200yds or so, will send the bomb up about 2 or 3 to one height to range. So for a 100yd shot downrange we are putting the bomb up about 200 yards above the ground. It comes down at terminal velocity which I'm not sure of for a streamlined object but its fast. When the ground is soft as it is in mid winter or later the bomb will bury itself 20 inches deep or so but the hole it leaves behind is about an inch or so in diameter. That makes finding the impact area tough. One man launches the bomb and watches it throughout the flight and the other guys does the same. Once it hits either guy can head out after it while the other keeps his eye on the landing site. He can direct #1 to the site better than if two guys were just wandering over the ground looking. We have been looking for a good smoke mixture that can be ignited by the launch charge for better tracking but nothing yet. Some guys use streamers or ribbons but they can foul the fins, tear off in flight or in the tube, get buried with the bomb or worst of all give a false location by tearing off just before impact. Overall the mortar is about the cheapest of the "artillery" pieces to operate. The bombs usually cost about $20-40 but can be used over and over. The fin assembly can be had for $5-10 and reloaded many many times. We load up a bunch of fins and just use one or two bombs for an afternoon of hole making. Its great for excercise too. Primers are about 25 cents ea and the powder is about the same per shot so 50 cents to lob a 3.5 lb chunk of iron fairly accurately about 100-200 yds. Additional charges can be attached to the fins for more range or height but things get out of hand quickly and those cheap shots become expensive when a bomb is lost. Our sighting system consists of a number of different GI sights used on everything from the 60mm M2 mortar (M4 sight) to the complex M53 sight that is used on the M29A1 81mm mortar and the 105mm howitzer. Sight adjustments are by mils or parts of mils so adjusting fire can be done pretty accurately. We also have a 25mm mortar training insert that uses a small tube fitted into the normal 60mm barrel and launches 1 inch bombs with .22 cal blanks and .22 cal black powder blanks in the nose for a pop and smoke when they hit. These things are addicting....I'll try to dig up some pics of those.

Frank