Trench Mount Question

[MarkFinneran]

If ever you are in Scotland please visit the Fort George Museum - some great captured MG08/15's on display. Anyway managed to get access to an original trench mount and took some pics. One question that has always interested me - what are the moving arms/levers with loop on either side designed to do?? Any ideas please as they seem redundant!! Mark

[IMBLITZVT]

They keep the hook part from sliding back off of that stud. They should work in either direction to keep the cradle on the ground or AA position. You need to swing them to understand fully. You see that little piece sticking out of the back of the cradle hook? That keeps this lever in place.

[alpencorps]

Hallo,
the levers are springloadet, they moves strong,
they have to hold the hoocks from the upper part in place.

On your pics they ar not in correct position.

Enclosed see pics where the levers are in corect working position,
one for Aircraft targets,
other one for ground targets.

Greetings
Fritz

[MarkFinneran]

Thanks Fritz and Matt - now to find one!!!
I was sent this image so thought I would add.
Mark

[MarkFinneran]

Just noticed barrel jacket repair 'sleeve'. Or is it to allow handling when the jacket is hot?? There are some WWI German images that do show some form of 'handling' protection.
If anybody has any images it would be good to see confirmation.
Thanks
Mark

[LA MITRAILLE]

Here are some trench mounts with accessories.....

I am on that you never have to look exactly at the photos of WWI Mgs; otherwise you would have already noticed that he has two versions of the standart trench mount.
The first version has a slightly different shape and especially, there is turn of the screw of tightening.

First version


Second version


Here, it is the accessorie's box which was delivered on the front with every trench mount. She allows to adapt captured machine guns or german MG 08





Here trench mount with a vickers captured MG


And here with a normal MG 08


To be continuated....

Best regards
david

[IMBLITZVT]

David,

Just stunning! I mean I have never even heard of some of the items you have a few of...

Do you have the most complete Maxim collection in the world at this point?

[LA MITRAILLE]

Picture of a vickers captured MG on trench mount



And picture of a russian captured MG on trench mount



It's very funny because i also have british vickers's trench mount used by german troops with MG 08.......

british's property


german's property


and david's property with a naval MG 08


best regards
david

[Bil]

WOW-going on 100 years,and still so much of the rare parts and little bits.You guys have some real history there,thanks for the pics and info! ---bil

[MarkFinneran]

Matt to answer your question I think David must have....

Great images. I think the one depicting a vickers in the trench is a Russian maxim (Germans wearing soft caps) but my main point of replying is the use of the sangster auxilliary mount. This is a rare British piece David and was designed for 'dismounted' vickers use for mobile MG teams. So although not a trench mount in the true sense it is often seen in photos (captured wpn German photos) especially post Somme, where MG crews accompanied the assaulting troops up front.
The fact that you have a captured one and displayed with a German maxim is wonderful. It is a highly sought after accessory by those who love the WWI British vickers!!!!!!
Mark

[JBaum]

Hmmmmm... OK, I can't help myself.... This lafette is discussed on pages 55-59 of HDv 368 Vol. 1b "The Shooting Stands for the M.G. 08" manual from 1934 which I have translated.

MG 08 Shooting Stands (Gun Mount) Manual
H.Dv. 368, Heft 1b - Die Schießgestelle für Die MG 08 - H.Dv. 368, Volume 1b - Shooting Stands for the MG 08. This manual has details of the construction and use of the shooting stands for the MG 08, including the sled, extension tube for shooting at aircraft, the tripod, and the auxiliary mount which was used on the ground or attached to a tree stump or post. 59 pages, with 34 very clear and detailed pictures and illustrations, about 8.5" High x 5.5" Wide.
$16 - includes U.S. first class postage.
See website for pictures: http://www.germanmanuals.com/manuals.html

[dwmmg08]

David, I'm speechless. You really must have everything that was ever made by the Germans in WWI for the MG08, or at least a pretty good run at it! I'm very, very impressed!!! You have the neatest things! Not just one box, or a picture of one, for the MG08 "Trench" mount... but 4?? Of the wooden boxes? Good grief!!! One would suspect that the wooden box would have been the least likely thing to have survived all these years.... wow!

You have an incredible collection! congratulations!

[MarkFinneran]

Perhaps the true German name for this mount is an auxilliary mount afterall!
Clearly over many years we enthusiasts have just accepted the name as a trench mount and the name has stuck. The sangster mount though was never designed for trench use and a pure 'tactical' option. There are 3 variants and i will attach some images when back in UK.
Mark

[Bil]

Forgive my ignorance,but how stable or accurate were these type of mounts? They don't look too sturdy,I would think the recoil would move them all over. Or did the use of the MGs as a denial weapon not requile them to be sturdier? I know in an emplacement they were better stabilised,or were these mostly used in temporary positions,as an assault or counter-attack mode? As a bullet hose,this would not matter too much.Any info would be appreciated.
You guys have some really nice stuff there! ---bil

[LA MITRAILLE]

Hello,

Mark, you are right for the machine gun, it is really a Russian! I made my message at the time of the aperitif ......

I thank you for your comments, to find accessories of machine guns, it is necessary at first to know them, then we can find them! I am sure that you have ever seen german's mg accessories, but you don't buy them because you didn't know them!
Me too!!!!!

regards
david

[IMBLITZVT]

I thank you for your comments, to find accessories of machine guns, it is necessary at first to know them, then we can find them! I am sure that you have ever seen german's mg accessories, but you don't buy them because you didn't know them!

David, good points.... however for us in the US, its not nearly as likely. Besides the guns, little else was brought back. Anything adding weight to the gun was removed. Many of the things we see in your collection can not be found in even the best US collection or museums. You are just in the perfect location to find these items. I mean how many trench mount boxes do you think got carried backed to the US, England or even Germany! I bet most got left in northern France!

[MarkFinneran]

Ok I have had enough now of pretending - David will you marry me?

Matts points about accessories to the USA is sound. After the short (but decisive) entry into WWI the US took far more MGs back to the USA than I suspect all the other countries put together. To own a MG08 or MG08/15 in Germany today is clearly quite a rare thing yet it does not take too much effort to find a live maxim in the USA!!

What is of interest to me is that considering all the German WWI war trophies that went to Australia and Ne Zealand and subsequently converted to .303 for any impending Japanese invasion - where are they nowadays??!!

Mark

[dwmmg08]

Ok I have had enough now of pretending - David will you marry me?

Matts points about accessories to the USA is sound. After the short (but decisive) entry into WWI the US took far more MGs back to the USA than I suspect all the other countries put together. To own a MG08 or MG08/15 in Germany today is clearly quite a rare thing yet it does not take too much effort to find a live maxim in the USA!!

What is of interest to me is that considering all the German WWI war trophies that went to Australia and Ne Zealand and subsequently converted to .303 for any impending Japanese invasion - where are they nowadays??!!

Mark

I think Matt was dead on right, you can find working guns here, and shoot them, but the accessories often did not come back here with the guns. That's partly due to how they were turned over, (as I understand it, the guns turned over as a part of the treaty did not include any accessories or spares, the thrifty and sensible Germans kept all those!) and due to how they were given out, as war trophies by the Government in most cases. There are probably more of these guns working now than at any time since 1945, I would guess, as back in 1940 or 1960, the only choices to shoot these things were WWI leftovers, lots of stuff was still held in store for the next war back then. Information on how they worked was also hard to come by in those days. Most guns, like mine before I got them, sat and were dust collectors for decades.

I was shocked to see this picture among a group of pictures of guns collected to be destroyed as part of the idiotic gun confiscation disaster in Australia. (no I don't have an opinion, sorry... ) Im hoping that the gun made it to a museum instead of being chopped up for rebar! I wonder if it was one of the .303 conversions? I know destroying this piece of history likely had a huge effect on the crime rate...

[Bil]

OOH-I can't stand those type pictures-common sense goes out the window on those deals!
As for the guns without mounts-just look at the pictures from after a battle or even after the war-piles of mgs,rifles,equipment.The Germans had to give up the armaments and go home,why drag all the assessories to the Allies,just bring the gun. The rifles had the bolts removed,tossed into a pile,rifles in another.No wonder there are so few matching numbers.I would think there were a lot of mounts left in the trenches,and picked up in later years by the clean-up crews post-war.Those guys were busy for years,and still didn't get everything! ---bil

[bmg17a1]

I certainly enjoy seeing the accessories for any and all types of MGs, especially those vintage items that are just not available in the US, like the 08 trench mount boxes and the low tripods for the Vickers. There are low mounts here in the US in collections, which used to show up on the market, but the boxes just are never seen. I'm not a dedicated accessory collector, although I do have some for my guns, and they are the type of collectible that I can see in other peoples' collections if I want to experience them. I reserve my money for live MGs, which are at the heart of it, in my opiniion. The US private MG collecting community is very special simpy because we can own and hsoot live MGs, which has created a previously unknown, immense and continually evolving repository of practical knowledge of MGs, derived explicitly from the hands on experience of owners in, shooting, maintaining, repairing, building and researching almost every type of MG ever made. This does not happen anywhere else in the world on such a scale and with such access. We are incredibly fortunate for this, and hopefully as the years go by all this accumulated information will make its way to all other countries and to collectors and thusiasts where there is a viable interest in MGs.

Bob