Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[bmg17a1]

A minor point here, for the record, since little details seem to keep you guys well lighted up on this thread. The Jap naval arsenal is not Yokuska, which is a small fishing village along the north coast of Alsaka, but, I believe, Yokosuka.
Just for the record........

Bob Naess

[sbl11]

Ooopps, you are absolutely right.
Thanks for the spelling correction Bob.
-seth

[Bil]

However,given that the japanese DID occupy part of the Aleutians (Alaska) during WW II,it would be worth a trip to make sure they didn't actually also build an armory anywhere near! If I get up that way,I will check it out. ---bil

[TactAdv]

[Tom]Oh and by the way, as far as yokuska drums are concerned, I have run into only one other, and its internals are totally messed up. I can't remember if its dated, I wrote it down somewhere, but i feel like it wasn't dated. Can you post a pic of the marking on your drum?

Seth,
Yeah, sure, here are the pictures again. One thing though: I am pretty sure my drum, while clearly a Japanese original which is pretty good as that goes anyway, is actually a Nagoya-made article, judging by the 3 Inscribed circle-inside-a-circle (Nagoya Arsenal )marks as you can see.

Also.....yeah, I -SHOULD- get it all put back together, all the original Jap parts that is, but for one thing, they are all still sitting in Bob Naess' shop and I am in no big hurry to get them back. "Someday" I am sure Bob will call and tell me they are restored and then I'll have them, but really all I wanted anyway was a transferable "MG15" receiver originally and that is what I have now as I actually shoot my guns and shooting them in German parts-kit guise is totally fine with me indefinitely. Now, if somebody wants to BUY my Type 1, well, we can have everything put back together as it is a complete gun with a matching number barrel.

[bmg17a1]

Tom: MG15 barrel chamber is repaired and ready for use. Drum is quite compromised as the sets of dummy followers were damaged to rpevent the drum from being used. Repair will be complicated although possible with parts from a German drum.

Bob Naess

[sbl11]

i dont imagine a need to repair the original drum, tom, unless you really want to use it. I am missing all the little screws on my original drum, and i haven't tried to replace them. i figure since i shoot with german parts, a german drum for $295s beat using and risking breaking an original. the other yokosuka drum i saw also had follower damage. could be a problem in those drums, or like bob said, because someone purposely messed it up. however, i met a guy who had no clue about using a loading tool, and he complained about how the drums were cheap junk. i laughed when i saw he was breaking them, because he is so arrogant. the guy has alot of machine guns, but i guess alot of mg's doesn't mean that you are well versed in everyone, even if you own them.

sounds like bob does good work, but i imagine that drum repair would be a bit difficult. anyways, i head home tomorrow, and will give removing that endcap screw another go before i had it over to you guys, or mr. libby.

-seth

[TactAdv]

Seth,
Have you shot your gun? Somehow, I didn't think you had shot it yet? You need to take some video and post it to the 'Tube or here. Am curious.....

-TomH

[sbl11]

yea i shot it. but, i didn't post videos because the first time i shot it i slipped some curse words into the video in excitement...hahaha

[sbl11]

ok, so i was finally able to remove the rear cover. it took a bit of tweaking, but i finally got it. it apears that at some point the lockimg disk and the endcap were rusted together and that upon twisting the cap, the disk began digging ditches on the interior of the the spring tube. when this occured, the threads on the tube expanded thus tightening the thread connection between the tube and the endcap. but, its off now. I'm worried to put it back on because of the slight deformation in the threading. i'll work on it. the markings on the bakelite are as follows: h575 and ehj. i opened one of my ima parts kit rears and it had the same markings, but facing opposite directions and in larger font. probably an early vs. later mould. there were slight traces of resin on the original tube, sort of like pot marks on the bottom of your car after you drive over a freshly paved road. In other words, it looked like tar.

-seth

[IMBLITZVT]

Seth,

So after all this, its a German cover... well for me this all but ends things. Now the majority of the bakelite covers you have found have been German replacements for sure. We may never know on the others 2. The pictures you have turned up are interesting but could be MG15s in Jap use. So unless we have an example still existing today of a Jap made Bakelite cover, I will for the time assume these are MG15s and the Japs did not make the Bakelite covers.

Now could it be a German cover put on by the Japs? Anything is possible. However the odds are much, much, much higher its a post war replacement. Either way, it will not be considered original to the gun and will be viewed as a replacement cover even if replaced by the Japs which you will almost for sure will never be able to prove.

I will never buy the idea that the Germans shipped covers over in Uboats or even in ships for that matter. Sorry, not buying it unless you find it on a Ships manafest written out! It just does not make sense to ship these covers half way around the world when the Japs could make them out of wood locally. The Germans were shipping high value items, not a cover for an almost out of date MG that would work without the cover if need be!

The only way German Bakelite covers got to Japan was on MG15s. So its always possible that a MG15 got destroyed and the cover was reused on a Type 98. However you will never be able to prove this. So its really not worth talking about anymore.

The most likely thing is that the original Wood cover on your Type 98 was broken and replaced post war with a German cover. I could give this a 98% chance of being what happened. Feel free to disagree but without proof there is little point. Bottom line, a German cover on a Jap gun will not be considered original, no matter how that German cover got there unless you can show that the Germans were suppling them these covers to help the manufacturing process. I think this is all but impossible and so the story ends... at least in my book.

You still have a great gun! Maybe you can get a Wood cover made for it or find one for sale! Either way its still a great gun and so what if its got an cover on the rear thats not correct for the gun. Like most, you will probably shoot it with German parts on it anyway!

[sbl11]

believe what you want, man. For my next feat, i will prove to imblizvt that we breathe air, without actually seeing any air!!!!

[sbl11]

by the way, i believe i have found information from the japanese describing exactly whaty we are looking for, "powder wrappings" for the 7.92 rhienmetal acmg.

[TactAdv]

Now could it be a German cover put on by the Japs?

NO! This CAN'T end! I won't allow this to DIE! It all makes perfect sense now, the Nips merely copied the German markings exactly.

Yeah, that's it. It IS Jap bakelite.

-TomH

[IMBLITZVT]

NO! This CAN'T end!

Haha, as you can see it will not. As I thought Seth will carry this torch to the ends of the earth even if there is little point now that he proved his cover is German. As I thought the real proof was in taking a close look at the cover in hand. Yeah it could be a copy of a German cover were they did not remove the manufacturers markings. Yes its possible. I also can't prove it wasn't made in Area 51 and then sent to Japan using captured German V1 technology to help supply the enemy with Bakelite covers to make sure they continued shooting back rather than using the planes to ram ships with!

The good part is without my comments to put doubt in the conversation, the theory will be "proven" shortly and so can finally die. The only question now is what is the point? Its not going to help your gun? Or is it for the greater good? Anyway, at this point, I think we have proven the old saying... "everything being equal, the easiest answer is the mostly likely to be true"... and was. Anyway, its a great time for me to step out of this never ending thread. Have fun, "screw you guys, I'm going home!"

[sbl11]

you win,


so what about a gun without any german markings in the bakelite?


did the germans stamp all their moulds? Every other piece I have seen from germany has had german markings. but the painted gun does not have any. if you really want I will post a picture. And yes!!!! all those guns found in all those historic black and whites were GERMAN!!!!!! Every Damn one of the 57!!!! we did a great job only mainly photographing the german guns in japanese hands!!hahah...and no if the japanese did put it on, and they did request the material and there are pictures from the pacific with bakelite rears, the point i make is very simple...the simplest! the japanese used alot of resinous material in weapons. type 94 pistols and flare gun grips are mamoung a few.


thank god you are "out"!

[TactAdv]

"...did the germans stamp all their moulds?"

From all the research I have done on Kunststoffeproduktion, the answer seems to be "Yes" , as in, it was a fully developed requirement. I have talked of these requirements before, and if you want I will be happy to send you a loaner copy of the very good book on the subject, from which you may well find some things of interest.

".....mamoung...."

Now, Seth, I will admit to being a cunning linguist myself, but you are going to have translate that one...WTF? ;-)

-TomH

[sbl11]

so does that mean that a bakelite rear without markings in no german? i think maybe, but again, without having done any research on the topic and just speculating like one of our kind friends so often does, i will not be able to tell for sure. However, it does seem very out of the ordinary for german bakelite.


Just for the record, I do not believe that the japanese got shipments for production of type 98s via uboat, instead i find it more likely they recieved material across siberia and by surface shipping after requests for material by Nomura in 1941. Mass production of the weapon doesn't seem to occur until 1943, so logically I think there is a reason for the time delay to be pinned on lack of material and equipment desired to build the weapons.

A "requirement" to stamp manufacture markings? Looks like some german got lazy on at least one cover.

[Bil]

Mamoung=among spelled sideways! Tom-is the book "Kunstoff..... by Weaver,published by Schiffer? If so,very good book on the subject.And yes,the Germans marked all of their bakelite stuff,not just maker,but content of mixture also. I don't think this is dead subject by any means,it just means the first assumption has not worked out,and others may present themselves.Remember that theories are just that until either proven or disproven. IMBLITZVT-your theory is called 'Ocams Razor",I believe. ---bil

[sbl11]

I am posting a few more photographs of type 98's, and a few other guns found in the still photos archives today.
Also, i will scan pages from documents found discussing the german-japanese trade of mg15s(FA15 according to one of the texts).

Here is the painted type 98 cover with no markings, guess its not german since it has no markings where they are supposed to be huh?haha



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Here is a picture of the insert plastic ring that was loose(unpinned). Notice its red color. It is very red in person, and looks to have little "material"(cloth, sawdust,etc..) impregnanting the resin.



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never a german cover so sloppily done, huh? or is it?

[sbl11]

Below is a type 1/100 dual flexible. Notice our friend in the khakis appears again!




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Here is a type 89(te-4) that francillion did not put in his book. I saw while looking through the photos notes that Francillion left in the margins. It was an neat feeling tracing his footsteps



Here is our khakis friend once more in the same picture of the nose gun but from a different angle:!!!!not the 3 drums behind him mounted to the left side of the nose in a row, still loaded!!!!!


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Here is another type 98(i must assume its a type 98 because i can't make the other assumption that it is a german mg15 because we can't see the bakelite...haha) Japanese guns in japanese planes right? haha



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Type 89 left out of francillions book. notice the spent shell catcher. I have seen a few like this, including the one in the nose pic on the type 9...umm i mean mg15.....haha
Anyways, I'm sure it will help with IDing the one suspect cartridge catcher known to exist today.



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lets not forget LT. Kennedy.



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