Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

it is a ki-49 "helen" bomber. Wish we could see just a little bit of the markings to id it for sure. But I would give it a good chance of being jap.

[IMBLITZVT]

it is a ki-49 "helen" bomber. Wish we could see just a little bit of the markings to id it for sure. But I would give it a good chance of being jap.

I know there are several versions of most aircraft but the one shown is not a typical KI-49 Helen Bomber.

First note the amount of window panes in the front of the plane. Second I don't see a side gun mount. Finally, the Armament is listed as 7.7mm Type 89 (VIckers type guns). So are you sure? I can't seem to find any other Bomber thats fits the pictures either so...

[sbl11]

Those websites aren't backed by very much research. Sure, the type 89 was probably used in them unitl it was replaced by the type 98. the type 98 would replace quite a few, such as the type 92 lewis, but one gun does not nessicarily have to be specific to one plnae, especially a bomber. If you look behind the "meatball" there is a squard opening on each side for acmg's of which type it doesn't matter. Plus that is what the caption reads under the photo. All that is certain is that it is a Japanese plane.


The two planes may not be the same, however, i believe the man is in both pictures. The Japanese had alot of variations in their aircraft, some change the appearance altogether. Regardless, the aircraft doesn't matter because it would still be japanese.

So indeed as you pointed out, it may not be a typical version, or it may actually be the most common and just not the atypical version your photo shows. Either way.

I imagine that these photos are listed in the national archives still photos collection 80-G-169777 is a reference number to find it. I'll have a looksie! and who knows maybe more will show up.

It is certain based on the descriptions of the aircraft being logged in the Pacific that they are indeed japanese. And, being that it appears to be the same man in both, i'd say the same plane.

-seth

[IMBLITZVT]

Seth,

Yes I could buy switching out the guns... makes sense. I thought the same but some aircraft are listed as having Type 1s in them. So it would be nice to see this documented somewhere.

The window in the back could be it. Judging by the picture inside the plan that window looks to far back to me but it could be it.

However the windows in the front make me think you have the wrong plane? It could be these too:
Mitsubishi Ki-21
Kawasaki Ki-48
Mitsubishi G4M

You say you know the plane is Jap. How? I would get a positive ID on the plane. A lot of countries had planes that looked a lot like this including the Germans.

I agree, same guy, same plane unless you find out the guy is some famous plane photographer or something...

Once you get a positive ID on the plane with reference pictures to prove its a jap plane, I would say this is by far the best evidence of Bakelite on a Jap plane. The only problem left is that one could argue that its a MG15 that the Germans had sent over... but I could call this much closer to proof once the plane is checked out! Also if you can get a date on the pictures, it would help. Not that many Jap planes survived the war so its less likely that its something out of an airshow or something the military held where they dropped some MG15s in it for display.

If only that guy in the plane was a Jap soldier! This guy is kind of odd looking and well dressed for exploring crashed planes...

[IMBLITZVT]

Check out the guys hat in each picture... The first hat has a horizontal darker band wrapping it. The second shows a Vertical Band going up over top his head... So is it the same guy? Or just two really closely dressed or can we not see the bands in one of the pictures...

Is it possible to link these pictures without using the guy as a reference?

[sbl11]

Sure, could be shadows on the hat. What are you getting at? both are taken in japanese planes in the pacific. it doesn't matter anyways because one shows an entirely different gun, location on plane, and angle as to not even help with the issue at hand. But, both guns have the same rear sights, and both pictures show a remarkably similar asian man aiming them in a crashed japanese bomber of some sort.

It really doesn't matter if it is a lily or a helen, or a nell, or a betty...all are medium japanese bombers and at some point in time they all probably carried type 98s for defensive reasons.

[sbl11]

I already have an ID, it is a ki-49 as it says below the picture. It is in the middle of the jungle. See the problem is that you get bad quality pictures when you want them blown up. I could have sent you the petter large scan and you can see the jungle through the hole in the crashed plane. so, no its not a crashed airplane at an airshow. It also has japanese mounts, like the mount on the green painted gun(the exact same mount+japanese mount not german) and they are shadows, not bands. Look at the shadows cast on his khaki pants and shirt. Those arent stripes in his cloth fabric. It is the same hat, it is floppy at the top and casts a shadow band around the base above the bill. The veritical line appears to be a shadow. And, since this gun has a japanese mount(which i have yet to see floating around the market or attached to any german gun) i would say that it is a japanese gun, not one that was carried with japanese sights into the jungle to this aircraft for the sole pupose of a photo shoot.


this is by far no german plane because these pictures are from the pacific.

That was ridiculous.

[sbl11]

Post me some pictures of a german plane with this gun emplacement.

The nose picture is believed to be a lily, and the beam gun pic is marked as a helen. I think it is the same guy, so i assumed it was very possible that it was in the same plane. They could be two different planes. He is in a really tropical place, because he is sweating his balls off.

post me some pictures with the same mount already found on a living type 98(the painted one) today.


When you can do that, i'll see your arguement, but all the data points at pacific and japanese as orgins. Plus, its more likely that you'll see a filipino in the philippines, not europe...haha

[sbl11]

I don't know about you, but being from alabama, and having to wear khakis everyday you would amazed at just how much you will sweat, and just how much darker your sweat soaked clothes get. The guy is sweating alot, on his face you can clearly see the drops of sweat running down to his chin. I would say the discoloratation in the "band" is a combonation of both shadow and sweat from his forehead.

[IMBLITZVT]

Hmm... thats interesting... it is from a different plane according to the pictures. Well then it makes little difference what plane is in the first picture even if I really don't think its a Helen based on the front windows. Lots of times these historic IDs are wrong or get mixed up. See my assumption was even wrong about the two planes being the same! There are lots of German Bombers and surely a bunch with side guns so that will not help and it would be very hard to ID the inside of the plane. I have not really looked at the mounts at this point. I will have to check that out when I have some time.

As far as telling the area based on the picture, thats not really possible. It could be in the mediterranean or in Central/South America and would even still in the pacfic. Lots of tropical areas in the world and this was a world war. Also you can't tell things like sweat in a picture. Maybe it just rained or he got out of a boat or...etc. or maybe its just the picture...

I agree it does point that way but there are still some questions not to mention it could be a MG15 in Jap hands right?

I think your thread looking to ID the mark on your bakelite cover will tell more in the long run. If its a German Export Mark, well you know its not Jap made and all but answers your original question. That will only leave two jap guns with bakelite cover as possible Jap covers, one is painted and we will probably never know.

[Bil]

From: Janes Fighting Aircraft of WW II .Info shows 3 7.9 MM guns,2 in waist,1 in aft-firing ventral position.Somewhere I have pictures of the guy in the funny hat above,I will look some more. ---bil

[IMBLITZVT]

Bill,

Note the amount of windows in the front cockpit. I don't think the plane in the picture is the same plane but it really does not matter as thats not the picture with the MG in question.

As Seth noted, the second picture is not from the same plane. So how can we get a positive ID on that plane>?

[sbl11]

No Matt,


Seth said: He made the assumption that it was possible that the planes were indeed the same due to the asian man in the hat looking quite similar in both photos. I guess it could have been a popular trend back then to dress in all khakis and have a hat. And yes you can tell sweat in black and white photos.

AND IT APPEARS TO ME THAT BIL THINKS THE FUNNY LITTLE MAN IN THE HAT IS IN SOME PICTURES HE HAS SEEN. COULD IT BE THE SAME MAN?! I THINK SO. HE IS JUST STRIKINGLY SIMILAR, TOO SIMILAR. AND COULD THE JAPANESE ACTUALLY HAVE HAD BAKELITE COVERS? I THINK THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SEEN POINTS IN THE DIRECTION THAT THEY DID. WE SEE THE ORIGINAL MANUAL, AND ALOT OF PICTURES WITH BAKELITE REARS. OTHERWISE, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, WE DID A DANG GOOD JOB OF FINDING AND PHOTOGRAPHING THE GERMAN MADE MG15s THAT MADE UP A VERY SMALL PERCENT OF THE TYPE 98s IN THE PACIFIC. JUST TOO MANY PICTURES FROM THE PACIFIC HAVE TURNED UP WITH BAKELITE REARS FOR THE TYPE 98 NOT TO HAVE HAD ONE SOMETIMES TOO. I'D SAY HALF THE PICTURES FROM THE PACIFIC SHOW BAKELITE AND HALF SHOW WOODEN REARS. AND WE KNOW THAT THE GERMAN MG15s DIDN"T MAKE UP HALF THOSE IN THE PACIFIC.



If your arguement is about id'ing the plane, i don't know what you want because it says its in a japanese helen under the picture. The first picture(the one looking at the nose gun from the outside) was given to me by mr. libby and he believed it could have been a lily. So, Mr. libby could have been wrong. I imagine the 2nd picture is recorded properly, and that our inability to identify the 1st pic is due to the fact that we only have one lousy angle to judge it from.

BASED ON THE ID GIVEN UNDER THE PHOTO, I DON"T SEE WHERE ANYONE COULD ARGUE THAT THIS IS A GERMAN PLANE. Plus, Mikesh worked for a very long time at the NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM restoring these type aircraft. Look up his bio. His book is very detailed. I think he got it right.


Whether they are the same plane doesn't matter, because either way they are both of japanese planes and japanese machine guns.

And, my original question did not necessarily have to do with the manufacture of bakelite rears in japan. I simply have not disallowed the possibility. I think that it is a great possibility that the cover was indeed german, and still original to the guns as parts supplied.

I reviewed a few documents today at the national archives, one was a translation of Numora's Mission to Germany. It discussed the rhienmettal japanese conection, and the "7.92 aircraft machine gun". It also mentioned " powder wrapping for 7.92 acmg" i have no idea what they mean by powder wrapping, but they included it in the items retained. i forget which box, but it is in record group 457

Could a powder wrapping be a very crude translation for a resin bakelite cover made from resin powder? Any thoughts on what that might be?


also,

RG 457 entry 9013 box 6 SRNA No. 004033

Contains Rhienmetal information on what it calls the FA-15 the FHL 131Z and the NIC11. However, because i was unsure as to what these were( i know now that fa-15 and fhl131z are the acmgs that i thought they were) i didn't copy any of the information.

RG 457 Entry 9013 SRNA 747-SRNA 1,497
Box 2 SRNA: 000756-000762

Discusses Phenol Resin for manufature of aircraft "plywood" contsruction. it is dated 1944.


and finally, and to me the coolest.

RG38 Entry: UD-09D23 Box 124

CINCPAC-CINCPOA Bulletine No. 132-44 entitled: "Preliminary Data on Saium" allied code name "mryt"


that for its 7.92 type 1 machine gun, it carried 450 rounds. That makes 6 drums, so if that says anything about the number of drums need for production, I think it says alot are at the bottom of the sea, and alot were made.

That will only leave two jap guns with bakelite cover as possible Jap covers, one is painted and we will probably never know.

you say you aren't trying to bust my balls, but it sure does seem like it. You havent seen any of these guns in person to make these judgement calls.

And Bil thanks for finding another site that went againt the previous assumptions made about the "Helen's" armament from the other site. Im sure both are right, and both are wrong. I bet it just depends on the time frame.

Thus proving my point those site don't mean jack! Heck, they don't even have pictures of the planes with any detail.


Are all bakelite rears maker marked in the front lip? I think my ima parts kits are.

[sbl11]

So how can we get a positive ID on that plane>?

Easy! Just read the caption under the photo!

[TactAdv]

Could a powder wrapping be a very crude translation for a resin bakelite cover made from resin powder? Any thoughts on what that might be?

Yes, very likely. I tend to think so, since in German parlance used at the time for describing the various forms of Kunststoffe, they always referred to the filler materials as a powdered state. "Wrapping" is probably a poor English translation or, transliteration, of the German language term in the original.

Contains Rhienmetal information on what it calls the FA-15 the FHL 131Z and the NIC11. However, because i was unsure as to what these were( i know now that fa-15 and fhl131z are the acmgs that i thought they were) i didn't copy any of the information.

Original wartime Rheinmetall internal documents often did, and do in modern times as well, refer to the TYPE of gun, rather than a 'name' per se, 'fa-15' is merely the internal nomenclature for 'flugzeugabwehr-15" describing both the type and the specific model in one designation.

Off-hand, I don't recognize either of the 'FHL' or 'NIC', but I can check. Surely the '-131' is most likely the MG-131, but I am curious as to the 'FHL' description........I'll dig it up.....

Wait, easier than I thought.....it is a remote dual-mount for the MG-131:
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instru ... /PEV11.htm
http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/waf ... 7_heck.htm

'FHL-' means 'FlugzeugHeckstandewaffeLeichtes" per one referenced description.


-TomH

[sbl11]

with regards to the man in the photos, I have talked it over with Mr. Libby and have determined that the planes ar not the same. Also, that the man is in quite a few photos as Bil alluded to earlier. Mr. Libby has been him in the dorsal position of a japanese aircraft(i forget which one he mentioned) behind a type 1 dual flexible. Mr. Libby said he has seen his name, and believes he is partially if not entirely japanese, and that he was indeed hired for the TAIC(Technical Air Intelligence Center) in the Pacific. I asked him to track down a few more photos of him, and I will do the same at the national archives in the still photos collection.



Tom,

Very neat information, now you have me kicking myself in the rear for not scanning any copies of the stuff. Ohwell, I could probably find it again because I have the box list I pulled, but it could take awhile...haha..darn.

I thought it was funny talking with my Japanese foriegn naval exchange officer, asking him to translate some of the manual i found. I forget what some of the words he used to describe the cover were, but some of the ways the Japanese describe items can be quite amusing, especially because we are so accustomed using one word, while they use many to describe objects in different ways. For instance, when you think of a gun, you think of its "model" number, but the japanese word that most clearly has the same meaning translates closer to the word "type". Typically making type 99 rifles, not model 99 rifles.

I don't know of anything related to an mg15 that would deal with powder and wrapping in the same sense.

In this case, the translation for powder wrapping has gone through three languages, the reports was a translation from japanese, not german. so it went from german-japanese-english...haha i can imagine some creative translations occurred in bringing this to the U.S.


-seth

[sbl11]

Tom,

Whoa! I just saw the dual mount link! thats AWESOME!


Thanks for the input, looks like Nomura and his crew went to Rhienmetal in March-April of 1941 looking to acquire some pretty neat stuff!

-seth

[sbl11]

P.s.
I also read somewhere today in a report from the tokyo to berlin that the Germans weren't too happy with the amount of goods being loaded on the german u-boats in the pacific. The translation said that they could carry 80-100 tons of material , and that on one occation 6 tons of empty space really irritated the german u-boat commander as it off set his ballast.


80-100 tons!?! no way!

[TactAdv]

I don't know of anything related to an mg15 that would deal with powder and wrapping in the same sense.

-seth

I make it as-

-"powder" describes the Kunststoff material as a filler composite......"powder" is in this sense directly a descriptor of the material.

-"Wrapping", easy enough to think "cover" there, as in a cover(wrapping the gun parts) for the rear receiver area.

[sbl11]

Well, thats what i immediately thought, but i didn't know if there was something else it could have meant. It also makes sense that they would request a little bit of aid in production since the scale of production during the first few years was minimal. I have yet to see a 1942(showa 16) dated gun or drum, and I have come across alot. And, from the USSBS on nagoya arms production, aircraft guns were not being built in any number until the the last months of 1942. Mr. Libby thinks this could be due to the ample supply of type 92 lewis guns and type 89(Te-4) mg's.

funny thing is that I have seen alot of type 1's probably just as many if not a few more than type 98s.

BUT!!! they typically are not yokuska guns like yours! I think that the type 1's are more common than type 98s, but that only if they are not the yokuska guns. I have seen only one other yokuska in person. IT IS THE GUN THAT IS FROM THE CRASH IN THE DISPLAY CASE AT THE NAVY HISTORY AND HERITAGE MUSEUM. and, even though its in bad shape, the reciever is in ok shape for reading the marking off of. It is showa 19(1944) SERIAL NUMBER 1763 AND APPEARS TO NEVER HAVE HAD A SECOND GRIP!... there are no holes in the bottom of the reciever, or no obvious breakages where one would have been attached. I hope this helps you for your personal references. Your gun could have ended up the same, as i'm sure many did! get that thing pieced back together in original configuration and post some pics, will you tom?

Oh and by the way, as far as yokuska drums are concerned, I have run into only one other, and its internals are totally messed up. I can't remember if its dated, I wrote it down somewhere, but i feel like it wasn't dated. Can you post a pic of the marking on your drum?