Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

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Japanese cover of original manual "model 98"

[sbl11]

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Another view of the rear with bakelite cover. To be fair, the manual also gives an example of a wooden cover in the parts break down. But these pictures clearly show that the japanese had bakelite rears in mind, and that these are original blueprints of JAPANESE guns as they display kanji characters on the safety rings.

[Bil]

Very nice-thank you! Fortunately there is a German manual also for these,or John Baum would have to learn Japanese! Good work with your continuing research! ---bil

[sbl11]

Haha, are they the exact same blueprint pictures? these came out of an original japanese document. I think its neat that you can see the japanese characters on the safety ring, not "s" or "f". Seems that they were interested in using both wood and bakelite rears as both are pictured in the document.


Also, I have found another bakelite rear gun on a type 98 at the National Museum of the Navy(washington DC Naval Yard Museum) they have a type 1 as well made by nagoya(the type 1 has a short bolt handle with no aluminum extention as seen on most and also no provision for a forward grip...it is dated 1945 and i am not sure whether the nagoya made type 1s just never adopted the extra grip or whether it was due to late war, as well as round holes not oblong ones in the heat shield...i have seen yokuska naval arsenals with the standard type 1 features)


lots of neat finds, more pictures to come. I wonder where the u.s. army air hq picked this manual up prior to 7-1942 to make a report out of it?

Finally, If i had to make a bet, I would say that of the type 98 marked guns that they began amping up production in late 1941 and made roughly 2,000 a year from there on just by looking at years and serial numbers. type 1's are a whole different animal as they were made at 2 different places(nagoya and yokuska)


-seth

[Bil]

Another Japanese one.No historic info,some German parts.

[sbl11]

Very Nice Bil,
That one is a yokuska naval arsenal one because of the anchor and the designator below the serial number after the "19"(1944) it has an "E" symbol. Also look it has no aluminum bolt hand extension. So, my previous statement about maker is not correct, it apparently has to do with availability and last ditch construction methods that either prevented the japanese factories from including the aluminum(maybe they had little to spare for a machine gun and used it for more important aeronautical parts/or maybe they were rushing these things off the line so the aluminum addition to the handle was seen as unimportant excess work). One thing that is fairly clear is that the nagoya made type 1's(like their type 98's) omitted the addition of a forward grip, while the yokuska naval arsenal one seem to all have it.

I am willing to bet that the bakelite on that gun is original to it. anymore pictures of it would be great!

Awesome post!!!!

-seth

[sbl11]

the following pictures are of a LATE WAR(1945 made) Nagoya made type 1 acmg It has a few neat characteristics that set it apart from normal japanese type 98's and type 1's. Obviously the reciever markings differ, but it has a single wooden pistol(no front grip) that has no grip latch installed. Yet the grip still has grooves(mine is a type 98 made in 1944 but has the latch and no grooves as well as no lip at the front bottom of the grip). also, the bolt handle does not have the Aluminum extention like the picture Bil just posted of a yokuska made type 1(with front grip). It does however have a wooden cover, but it appears very crudely finished. The holes in the heat shroud are perfect circles, not the typical oblong holes. It has the aircraft sights in place, so you can see what they look like(these are the first ones i have seen in a modern picture).




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[sbl11]

More of the type 1:




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[sbl11]

Not sure if this is a type 1 or a type 98, but will work on finding that out latter when I go to the DC navy Yard museum. You can read the caption in the 2nd picture, but apparently this gun was in the rear of a japanese torpedo bomber and it crashed into the cruiser "Reno" in 1944 off Formosa. The gun itself was wrapped around a 5" deck gun and recovered, now on display! Just an interesting tid bit that goes to show what most likely happened to a great many of the type 98/type 1 family.





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I'll help them amend the "7.7" mistake on the plaquard when I get there.






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[sbl11]

Here is a type 98 with bakelite reciever rear like my own. This is the third type 98 with bakelite that I have seen(1 is mine the others are either on display in a museum or in thier collection). Also Bil's picture is the 1st type 1 with bakelite rear I have seen. Seems to me that bakelite was used on these weapons based upon modern pictures, pictures from the ww2 era, battlefield pictures, and original japanese documents.

This type 98 has still attached one of the mounting brackets from the plane it was recovered from. I think that if any part were to be removed/replaced the rear cover would have been second to the mount. I believe that this type of mount would have been from a lily bomber, and the other "square" mount previously shown in francillions book is from a nick twin engine fighter.

Also, this gun appears to have been painted green( reciever metal). This gun was made in 18.3(March 1943) roughly 10 mounths prior to my type 98. Nagoya seemed to have access to some bakelite parts from time to time, and as the Virgina war museum type 98 shows( a possible japanese made cover as the seams are 90 degrees off of the ordinary position of vertical) that the japanese procurred different bakelite rears at different times in production. I believ the important take away is that they would use what they had available, wood or not.




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*****NOTE****** you can clearly see a division between the aluminum extention here and the steel on the bolt handle. Interesting to note as well, is that this is the first japanese aluminum extention I have seen that is painted black(much like the german part) they are typically very bright in appearance.



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[TactAdv]

the following pictures are of a LATE WAR(1945 made) Nagoya made type 1 acmg It has a few neat characteristics that set it apart from normal japanese type 98's and type 1's. Obviously the reciever markings differ, but it has a single wooden pistol(no front grip) that has no grip latch installed.

Okay, Seth, some more VERY good physical research here, I am quite pleased you are sticking with this effort as it is turning up some very interesting data. This particular Type 1 you have pictured here, Yokosuka serial #1746, is interesting and without realizing it I think, your pictorial proof here now raises more new questions than it answers-

To wit, Yokosuka production serial number 1746 shown here is just 650 serial numbers ahead of my own 1944 Yoko Type 1, that is not many guns produced in almost presumably sometime between 1 1/2 and 2 years from my own guns making. This leads me to reinvigorate my belief that they were simply not turning out many of the things on a monthly/yearly basis.....the MG-15 design is -relatively- easy to make, and for them to have taken, at least, 1 1/2 years to make just 650 more guns really tells a tale.......about SOMETHING. Whether it is a tale of manufacturing issues, or capacity, or even low demand....it certainly says something. My own Yoko Type 1 is in similar physical condition and appearance.

Next. I have been told by both Ed Libby and Bob Naess in the last year, and others past that it is widely believed, or understood and agreed upon as being likely amongst such scholars, that the Yokosuka model designation of 1-79-1 translated out such that the trailing " -1 " is understood to have the meaning of being a variant of the basic Type 1 adoopted design, i.e., the whole marking of course translates as "(gun)Type 1- 7,9mm (caliber)- (variant) 1"; what is interesting here is that I was told the "variant 1" designation exists, or is currently understood, to indicate a change or alteration from the basic Type 1 design BECAUSE of the added forward pistol grip. Note that so far as is known today, there are only two real differences between ALL Yoko Type 1 guns in the entire production history that are of any meaningful distinction-
-the presence, or absence, of the added forward pistol grip
-the change(late war) to the horizontal cooling slots in the barrel jacket.

Since both Nagoya and Yokosuka arsenals switched, at least to some degree or another, to the later cooling slots design as the war progressed, this is not likely enough of an alteration to be considered a new model. What trumps everything though is the fact that the serial numbers of the guns, and production year dates, are seemingly reversed here between my (earlier) gun WITH the added forward grip, and this #1746 gun shown here WITHOUT the forward grip produced so much later!! The simple fact that the gun pictured here, #1746, was made so much later WITHOUT the forward grip addition, yet is cleanly marked as "1-79-1" kind of blows holes in the notion that a Type 1 "-1" variant exclusively means that is a gun with the added forward grip. I think everyone is going to have re-evaluate that notion of what the "-1" variant likely means now. I have no real concept then of what the "-1" variant could relate to as there is simply no meaningful distinction, mechanistic or technical, between these two guns, internally or externally, sans that extra grip being there or not. This gun you have shown does not as you point out have the grip locking bar device, yet my earlier gun DOES, and they are both marked as "-1" variants. (The ONLY other remaining technical distinction that I can even think of is one that occurred to GERMAN MG-15's somewhere in 1940 that being the internal switch from a cut-steel wire buffer spring, to the use of a synthetic phenolic buffer disc stack. I have not yet seen any evidence that the Nips used anything other than the cut-wire spring all the way through.)

My gun has the same wooden cover and grip panels as this one shown.

It is very nice to see the actual original Jap sights as shown. I had never seen a correct set of original sights before, intact and undamaged and complete. Nice.
-TomH

[TactAdv]

Also, the bolt handle does not have the Aluminum extension .........

Seth, I would not put too much thought or existential meaning into a particular gun, German or Japanese, having or not having the aluminum bolt handle extension, as found.

Those extensions were probably meant to be easily replaceable when damaged, experience having shown that area of the handle taking the brunt of the wear/damages. It is only lightly pinned on, and I have seen plenty of German guns missing it , too. In fact, I have a parts set that is missing one right here. It could mean POSSIBLY that that is indicative of some deeper meaning as related to Jap wartime pressures during manufacture, but I doubt it. I just think individual guns suffered the loss of it as they things happened in use.....it's War- people get hurt, things get broken ;-)

-TomH

[sbl11]

Tom,

the type 1 i pictured is made by nagoya, so it would have different characteristics from your yokuska gun, i believe anywys. I think that yoko stopped making guns before nagoya. My reason for this is because nagoya had a larger factory more capable of supply. So, I do not think that the serial numbers between the two different factories coincide with each other. This gun could have been made either prior or after your gun, unless they did communicate between the plants on serial numbers.

-seth

[TactAdv]

Tom,

the type 1 i pictured is made by nagoya

I don' think so, not #1746 shown. Yokosuka was the only one to mark the "1-79-1" type marks, the next picture, #174(0?) clearly shows the Nagoya Arsenal stamp, agreed, but #1746 is Yokosuka made by the markings from all I know.

[ADDED JUST NOW] Okay, now I am not so sure......I just went and looked at some other Nagoya markings on other guns....things that bother me here in saying it is Nagoya made are the fact there is no clearly visible Nagoya icon, other things Nagoya made for IJN were still marked as Nagoya made, and the fact that the "safety arrow" stamping is clearly visibly different from the other pictured gun made by Nagoya in the next picture.....I can't fathom they would change something like the safety arrow for a contract made gun for the Navy??

What led you to believe that it was Nagoya made??

[sbl11]

Tom,

I agree that the meaning of the "-1" is a mystery, because i haven't seen any marked "-2" for a 2nd variant. As far as the bolt extention is concerned, it does show a change in production. You said that they are only lightly pinned, but this one has no pinn hole in the first place. If it were to have lost its extention, then you would see the pin hole. It was never installed, i think, because it wasn't drilled to except one.

How about those diagrams from the japanese manual on type 98s that dates prior to 1942 when it was apparently captured and analyzed by the air HQ? Seems to me that they show bakelite rears on japanese marked type 98s(safety ring markings).

-seth

[sbl11]

Well as a good old redneck boy from alabama, such as my self, would say: "time to learn you something new"...haha...but seriously,

The yokuska guns are stamped with a naval anchor with a "y" superimposed as well as a backwards "E" after the date...so

naval anchor
1-79-1
serial #
kanji-20-"E"



the nagoya type 1's are marked similarly, but omitt the anchor obviously and the backwards "E" is another kanji symbol


1-79-1
serial #
Kanji-20-kanji


-seth

[sbl11]

What led you to believe that it was Nagoya made??

quick and easy answer:

Mr. Edwin Libby


haha...i can post the write ups he sent me of a few different guns. I believe he told me today that his is a nagoya made type one similar to this one without a forward grip.

As for the circle holes, they are late war not early as the oblong cuts are. it would take too long and too much work to cut elongated holes and a simple drill could cut circles.

Late war= faster cheaper easier= circle holes


-seth

[TactAdv]

Well.......you're right Seth,,,,,,I was concentrating on the one line of markings and not thinking about the whole set.

"I KNEW ALL THAT, I JUST FORGOT MOMENTARILY". ;-)

-TH

[sbl11]

"-1" 1st variant is seen on both nagoya type 1 guns without forward grips, and on yokuska type 1's with grips. I like you Tom, see that the idea of not changing the character for such a difference obscure. But, it is possible that both plants wer producing type 1's at the same time of which both considered thier product the 1st variation. But, that leads one to ask what is this the 1st variation from. Was there in fact another gun prior a "-0" variation zero...i think not.

The Japanese did some obscure thinks to expedite production. It wasn't nearly as simple as we had once imagined. You are right, I have brought to light more questions. But, I believe that I have found alot of answers. You said on the first page of this post(oh so may months ago) that the japanese used wood, bamboo, and bakelite. Well aside from bamboo, which I have not seen, i would agree with you.

I also believe that the japanese use of materials changed constantly due to availablity. I think that in using bakelite as many picture past and modern have shown, as well as the manual i have scanned, that the Japanese not only obtained bakelite(amoong other parts) from germany, but also attempted to create their own(hence the odd bakelite on the nimitz gun at Va war museum). I could be totally wrong, but evidence does point to the bakelite usage on these guns, and you would agree.

These variations only go to show that the Japanese production of type 98s and type 1's changed dramatically in design. My type 98(aside fromits bakelite rear) has a pistol grip without cuts and no "pinkie lip"(the bulge at the fore base). It is the only one i have seen. It is almost like a hybrid between the standard(german style) and the late war ommitting of the latch style.

I can not think of the name of the company, but Mr. libby believes that another subcontractor of nagoya also provide some 200 type 98/type1's to the ijaf/ijn.

I would say that your numbers are about right for production. I believe that for nagoya made type 98s that they began major production in late 1941 and produced rough 1,500 to 2,000 sample per year until the war ended. I based this off the type 98s posted on this forum. I Find it odd that two museums have type 98s with bakelite rears, as well. Now its just time to see if they are marked similarly.

-seth

[sbl11]

"I KNEW ALL THAT, I JUST FORGOT MOMENTARILY". ;-)

I CALL BS...haha...no, i understand, it happens. There is only so much you can remember. My Dad is the worst he mixes stuff up all the time, but unless you are active in a subject you will forget it. I can't remeber the different makers of MP40's and heck I bought one and it should be coming in soon. So heres a shout out to Bob Naess, thank you sir for my new toy, that is to say that the ATF get going on the paperwork...haha


-seth