Pakistani 308 blank warning

[Intruder196]

For those of you thinking about shooting those Pakistani 308 blanks in a semi or FA Mg42, be very careful. I just cut open 100 rounds of these to convert them to a different caliber and noticed that 98 of them had a powder charge of 14.5 grains, which is not overly hot. However, 2 that I cut open were waaaaay overcharged. One had 26.5 grains of powder and the other had 31 grains. In other words both were double charged. These are DANGEROUS loads and could at the very least damage your gun. If you are considering using these for reenacting etc, I would reconsider. If you have any brass 308 blanks and arent sure if they are pakistani, these have headstamps of "pof" on them.

[SgtSteiner47]

I fired over 1,000 rounds of this through my M53. It had worked great, except my M53 had been having problems and it blew a round out of battery and blew my barrel door open...the end of my m53 at the moment....wise lite has replaced mine and is sending me a brand new gun. But the ammo was great for me anyways..

[Bil]

Up to a point.... ---bil

[Intruder196]

I think it's possible a very hot blank could have damaged your barrel door in the same way.

[Blanksguy]

.....but I have found this with the British and other European Blanks in the past when making MP-44 Blanks from their brass.....even some currently make PPU Blanks have a wide spread for powder-weights/charges from case-to-case.

These other countries do not seem to be using the automated cartridge machines that weigh ever cartridge.......total, front, rear, length, out-of-round, etc., etc., ........very progresive machines.........and something to think about when buying surplus ammo brought in from overseas.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

HEED THE WARNING PEOPLE. Don't trust the blanks in an automatic gun if they have BEEN PROVEN to have bad loads!

Or go ahead and be stupid and blow up your gun so the rest of us can have a laugh at your expense. Stupidity provides endless entertainment.

[Bil]

I just can't say it!Too easy! But the internet is full of videos of this stuff,so be sure to bring a video camera,and a note for someone to post it! ---bil

[JBaum]

also recommended is a kevlar sleeve to stop the shrapnel, and don't forget eye protection!!!!!!!!

[Blanksguy]

SgtSteiner47,
Was it a "Blank" that blew your barrel-gate open (?)........or was it a "live-cartridge with bullet" (?).

"Theory"/Question........
From your observations, which blew the barrel-gate/door open on your M53/SA42 (?)..........but first, "Blank" or "Live-Ammo" (?).... :

1: Harsh/hard rearward movement of the barrel during recoil until it hit the Cam-Piece/"Trunnion" (?).
2: Weak-spring in the barrel-gate/door allowing it to open more easily (?).
3: Worn catch-surfaces (rounded) on the two tabs of the barrel-gate/door allowing it to open during firing (?).
4: Over-pressured live ammunition such as some brass-cased Turkish 8x57mm ammunition (?).
5: Ruptured cartridge-case with blast-pressure blowing the barrel-gate/door open and bending it (?).
6: Too small of a Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" hole under Flash-Hider causing harsh rearward movement of barrel/bolt-assembly (?).
7: Weak recouperator-springs allowing for harsh rearward movement of barrel....allowing it to hit (hammer) the Cam-Piece/"Trunnion" hard until the barrel-gate/door opens (?).

Just some things to check while we try to sort this out a little on your M53 (SA42).
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[SgtSteiner47]

Blank guy,

I believe it was "Ruptured cartridge-case with blast-pressure blowing the barrel-gate/door open and bending it". the case had blown up sending the end piece still suck in my bolt, the other half of the case had blown and had expanded and coated the inside chamber of the barrel. had to use a screw driver to bend part of the case and then try to pull it out. I had a yugo ruptured case remover but it didnt work on the .308 barrel being it was 8mm ruptured case remover. The barrel door didn't have a weak spring or anything as the barrel door blew up and was permanently bent in a arc after the small explosion of the cartridge.



sgtsteiner47

[Blanksguy]

SgtSteiner47,
So I take it with your reply that it was a fired "live-cartridge with bullet" in 7.62x51mm/.308 cal. .........correct (?).

It might help others if they knew what the ammunition manufacturer was and possible the case-head-markings.

Sometimes a cartridge will separate within the chamber due to high a chamber-pressures in combination with loose "head-space".......others will separate due to chamber-pressure from a bad lot of ammunition..........still others will "blow" from high-pressure due to bullet "set-back" during chambering.....or an obstruction in the bore.

Who was the manufacturer of this 7.62x51mm/.308 cal. ammunition (?).....was it surplus (?).....stored-correctly (?)....or someone's re-loaded ammunition (?).
Did the bullet leave the bore.......or was the prior bullet still left in the bore from a "squib-load" (IE: Too little powder).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[SgtSteiner47]

Blank guy,

Sorry, no it wasnt a live round, it was a blank that had blown up. it was the Pakistani blanks.

[Blanksguy]

SgtSteiner47,
Please post some clear photos of the shell-casing that exploded.

I would (as others) be interested in seeing the case-base in particular.....along with the case-crimp-area..........and a side-view.

Others would like to see photos of the bent Barrel-Gate/Door as to how it was bent.....and possible a little more information as to condition of your other parts such as Bolt, etc. (?).

I have had a one out-of-battery discharge with a C&R MG34 firing Blanks......bolt went forward but didn't trip the firing-pin.........when I went to do immediate-action (cold-weapon) the firing-pin released as the Bolt was unlocking from the Barrel-Extension.........but nothing as drastic as your "explosion" in your M53/SA42. Mine did nothing more than bulge the Blank-Cartridge-case (due to lower pressures than "live-ammo")....and knock the extractor off the bolt-face when the shell-case ejected.
Nothing with my C&R MG42 over years of firing Blanks and live-ammunition.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[SgtSteiner47]

Blank guy,

I didn't get a chance to take photos before i sent it out to WLA to get fixed. The casing is still "some where" in my gear from GAP 1. WLA said that i they had the wrong firing pin in my MG????? Which i don't quite understand yet. When i took the casing out it was just the casing, the bottom half had separated from the casing. Idk if that could have been because the ammo??. I still have 3,000 rounds of the stuff left..and no money to get "better" .308 rounds. Dilemma.....




sgt

[Blanksguy]

SgtSteiner47,

Just as a follow-up (been going on two months now....).......have you been able to locate that ruptured "Blank-casing" to provide us with photos of the ruptured case (base, crimp, and side-views)..(?).

To date......I have yet to hear of anyone else having problems with this Blank. (IE: Pakistani .308 brass-cased Blank).
I checked with "Robb" over at AtlanticWallBlanks......and he tells me that he has sold thousands of these Blanks, and no problems from reenactors using these in belt-fed weapons.

As a "side-note".....you said something about the possibility of an incorrect firing-pin being put into your gun by WLA (WiseLite)....which may have caused the firing-pin to stick in the bolt-head with the tip protruding out of the face of the bolt....allowing it to fire the blank before it was chambered.
This would cause an explosion even if the blank was not over-charged.

I have still not found any Pakistani .308 Blanks with a "double-charged" while making MP44 Blanks.......and checked with Robb at AtlanticWallBlanks....and same thing, no "double-charged" .308 Blanks to date........and no problems reported using the Pakistani .308 Blanks sold to date......(????).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

[SgtSteiner47]

Blank guy,

Sorry its taken me so long, i have been very busy and i haven't had a chance to look around for it nor have a moment to myself. I couldn't find the case. But to describe the case is that. The bottom part of the case simply blew off. The rest of the casing was okay, the bottom part stayed in my extractor claw and the whole casing pretty much molded itself to the inside of my barrel. I haven't found a double charged round yet but i simply can not get my SAM53 to fire semi with the blanks. I do everything right with the blank adapter i got from you and i drilled a few larger holes i don't quite remember the sizes at the moment as i am writing this. But i either get a 3 round burp or it double feeds. the last time i checked i think i was between a .140 and .155 a step bigger and it doesn't have enough gas and a step smaller and burst it goes.. and yes its a wiselite M53..... I checked everything on my gun and i had a budy who couldn't figure it out either and we tried his 2 pc blank barrel that and his sizes and nothing..I believe she slam fires..i checked my firing pin and the end of the 2nd peice in the wise light bolt the rings around it the last one had some dings on it. I believe i still have that at home and i will try and find that and put a photo up. I have no idea how to solve the problem. I have fired it live and it works fine. I am quite fed up with trying to blank adapt it.. Anyone live Near VT?????????

[Blanksguy]

SgtSteiner47,

Blank-Adapting is pretty "straight-forward"......with that I mean that:
1: The operating-pressures are lower with "Blanks".
2: With a known "operational" MG42/SA42/M53/SA53 in 7.62x51mm/.308 cal. (which is the caliber that you ordered your 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly in)........it is just a matter of swapping-out the live-barrel-assembly.....and removing the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle".......then adjusting the BFA Hole-Size/Restriction until your weapon just operates.
(NOTE: It does, as with live ammo, require consistantly loaded ammunition/Blanks to operate reliably.).

Now, to address your reply about the partial-case in chamber, and Blanks in general.........and we'll let the other Board-Members chim in where they see the same "pattern" as I am seeing.

You first discribed your gun as having a .308 Blank "Blow-Up" in your gun during an "Out-Of-Battery" Explosion.......
.....and that WiseLite (WLA) or you (??) had the wrong firing-pin in the weapon......(???).....but this same gun has fired 1,000-rds. of live-ammunition (??-Caliber-??).........
During the "Out-Of-Battery" explosion.....we are told that the force was so great that it not only blew the "Blank-Case" apart...but the force was so great that the pressure bent the barrel-gate to where you could not repair/bend the barrel-gate back.

A couple of questions come up during all of your replies after "Intruder196" started this thread about the Pakistani .308 Blanks.........
1: What live caliber is your SA53 chambered in (?).

2: Do you understand that a "double-feed" is a problem of either not enough recoil for the bolt to hit the buffer-head and eject the spent cartridge........"or" that the parts inside the bolt that hit the buffer-head are worn where they will not allow the buffer-head to "act" on those parts that eject the spent cartridge (?)......a "double-feed" then happens as the spent-cartridge is still on the bolt-heat and moves forward to chamber the next cartridge.
The only other way that a double-feed can happen is if the extractor is worn/missing.......or did not "pick-up"/catch the cartridge rim.

3: Is there the possibility that the firing-pin in your bolt was stuck/wedged-forward to where it stuck out of the bolt-face during operation (?). This would fire ammo out of battery.

4: Is there the popssibility that #3 above could be happening with a chamber that has had a "case-head-separation" during your last outting firing live ammo.(?). (IE: The last live-round firied at the range left the front section in the chamber (?)).

5: Is your recouperator operating correctly.....or binding at any point (?)......and at this point......What is the condition of your Trunion caming-surfaces and is it a "matched-set by serial-number (?).

WE could go on and on on things to check on why the out of battery explosion........or if it was a bad blank.
On the "adjujstments" to fire Blanks........you'll need to inspect you weapon and insure that it still fires live ammo first (it was returned to you by WLA after it blew the barrel-gate)....then change over to your 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly. At that point....start with a know reliably "Blank".....and adjust from there........and yes, you may have to make up a set-screw with a restriction between on that is too large and one that is too small. This is the nature of "Blank-Adapting" a gun that was made to fire full-auto only and re-manufactured to fire semi-only with additional bolt-weight, and spring weights from hammer as the recoil-spring is shortened.

More questions please (??).........but with clear exact information on what you have, what you have tried, results....and all in a clear logical manner so that it can be understood.....not piece-mealed where incomplete-information is submitted.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net