Potential Receiver Stampings -- Interested?
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salt6
- General
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- Location: NE Okla
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Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
John Newton (1725-1807)
____________________________________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
____________________________________________
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
John Newton (1725-1807)
____________________________________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
____________________________________________
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
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-M60_Gunner-
Correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm just going on what other members have posted -- but aren't ALL the rear-half receivers (for all the kits that have been sold without receivers) still stored in US warehouses?
As I understand it, all the MG42/M53s come into the US whole, then the receiver rear half is removed by the importer before the guns are shipped and sold as "kits."
Re: the picture on the BRP site -- I think I'm going to be sick . . . . :l++
As I understand it, all the MG42/M53s come into the US whole, then the receiver rear half is removed by the importer before the guns are shipped and sold as "kits."
Re: the picture on the BRP site -- I think I'm going to be sick . . . . :l++
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Karbinator
WOW!!!! It just dawned on me that if Leonardo Divinci could reveal the truth about the Holy Grail in his painting of the Last Supper, maybe he could give us some hints about where all those missing receivers are!
So, I went to the painting and IMMEDIATELY found a clue right there in plain view! How could we have missed it all these years? Sitting right there on the table, right in front of St. John (ne: Mary Magdelene) is two COMPLETE rear receivers!!!
And -- I'm nearly delirious with excitement! -- the sacrimental table itself is being held up with tripods made with from K98 stocks!!
There must be a secret map here somewhere . . . .
Davinci, you are a clever one.
So, I went to the painting and IMMEDIATELY found a clue right there in plain view! How could we have missed it all these years? Sitting right there on the table, right in front of St. John (ne: Mary Magdelene) is two COMPLETE rear receivers!!!
And -- I'm nearly delirious with excitement! -- the sacrimental table itself is being held up with tripods made with from K98 stocks!!
There must be a secret map here somewhere . . . .
Davinci, you are a clever one.
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Please point me to the 3 cut demills for $200. I'll buy them all.toolman_556 wrote:I guess I just don't get it. Demil 3 cut used receivers you have to spend countless hours welding and grinding back into a receiver are going for $250+ in the for sale section of this board right now. Every one that pops up sells in a day or 2.
BTW you are correct and I agree with you, in that the cost of $100 is way low for a new rear receiver section. However even though the demills require work and time to repair there is a significant value potential for origional receivers over new stampings. ie history, accuracy and originality of dimensions and designed materials. I'm not cutting on you but even though there is considerably less work in a new receiver section or even a complete new receiver. I would doubt that they would ever bring as much as a properly repaired and restored origional receiver.
Regards,
Heli
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Dan@AngolaArmory
I'll chime in here. At one time, not that long ago, BATFE allowed live Mg's to be imported, held in a bonded warehouse, then the stock "manipulated" (ie: demilled). At that point the firearms were inspected for compliance, and if you passed, the goods were released into commerce. Now, BATFE wants the demil done overseas before import. This creates a host of problems for the importer, some of which are mutiple trips (inspection/purchase, demil, packing, shipping). There have been times where the deal has changed between trips, not to mention labor problems, overseas paperwork not done correctly (or not done at all!) and a host of other things that can go wrong, and often do. Typically an arms deal takes up to a year, sometimes more, from locating the goods untill they enter US commerce. Other importers may get wind of your pending deal and jump your claim, its happened guys. I hope this clears up some of the questions you guys have about the import process.
I have located more guns, like I said above though, it may be a year before I offer them for sale. Don't bother asking how much they'll be, I have no idea at this time.
FYI, I now reside in the free state of Kentucky.
FWIW,
Dan
I have located more guns, like I said above though, it may be a year before I offer them for sale. Don't bother asking how much they'll be, I have no idea at this time.
FYI, I now reside in the free state of Kentucky.
FWIW,
Dan
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Sledge303
Not sure what BRP does or has done with there de-milled receiver parts (seem to remember they used to sell them on there web site?)gdmoore28 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm just going on what other members have posted -- but aren't ALL the rear-half receivers (for all the kits that have been sold without receivers) still stored in US warehouses?
As I understand it, all the MG42/M53s come into the US whole, then the receiver rear half is removed by the importer before the guns are shipped and sold as "kits."
Re: the picture on the BRP site -- I think I'm going to be sick . . . . :l++
I do know that the Yugoslavian M53's were imported by Century Intl. Arms as complete firearms. The performed the de-mil in their "Bond" warehouse following the guidance provided by BATFE. Only the parts sets came thru customs for release for sale. The "cutters" in "bond" slice up the receivers into a large tank of water, where a good "rusting" starts pretty fast. These became "scrap" steel and were dosposed of. By now they are probably part of some Chinese made item being sold at Wal-Mart!!
I would commit to spending up to $500 front money to start up,IF this is really happening.This would be to help with materials,etc.when it is up and some have been sold to help re-coup costs,I would like that amount as a credit toward the product.Like a down payment if you will.Sort of like my deposit on the 48 Tucker,you take your chances.Let me know---Bil
Haven't heard from toolman in a while. Last I heard he was still trying to guage the potential demand and sales numbers. If it's true that the receivers that came off the thousands of M53 kits that were last imported were all destroyed, then the demand issue seems to have an obvious answer.
I bit the bullet and bought a nice three cut receiver because I want to go ahead and get started on at least one of my kits. But, I'd like to continue this hobby in the future with more builds, so the issue of receivers is still important to me, just as it is to the many others who are being held up in their builds because of a lack of receivers and camming sections.
Prices? I just don't know, because tool and die making and manufacturing are not my field. Two people have told me that BRP sold their rear receiver stampings for $100 less than a year ago. The same stampings now cost over $300. Maybe that's what it costs to sell the stampings and make money.
Two people who are in the tool and die field have estimated that it would cost a minimum of $50K to press the first stampings. If that's the case (and I have no idea whether it is or not), then one would have to sell 500 stampings at $100 to recoup the initial investment. Or sell 1000 stampings at $50 each.
Of course, who would go to so much trouble and expense and not expect a return on their investment? Not me. Considering that additional expenses will be incurred once the die are manufactured -- the cost of steel, labor, insurance, administration, and on and on) -- one could probably assume that the actual cost of each stamping might double. So, $200 ea for stamping 500 sets, $100 ea for stamping 1000 sets.
I would think that the smart business man, when considering that receiver sales might simply peter out after a certain (relatively small) quantity are sold, would want to make a higher than normal profit margin. (There's also always the possibility the government might decide to outlaw the sale of receivers, and one's entire investment would immediately be lost.) So let's say that the sale price would be double the cost to manufacture. Then you're looking at $400 per set if you sell 500, $200 per set if you manufacture 1000.
All of this is just pure conjecture on my part. I'm just throwing out numbers for the sake of discussion, so don't flame me on this if I'm totally out of the ballpark.
Some guys here are in manufacturing. How far off am I?
I bit the bullet and bought a nice three cut receiver because I want to go ahead and get started on at least one of my kits. But, I'd like to continue this hobby in the future with more builds, so the issue of receivers is still important to me, just as it is to the many others who are being held up in their builds because of a lack of receivers and camming sections.
Prices? I just don't know, because tool and die making and manufacturing are not my field. Two people have told me that BRP sold their rear receiver stampings for $100 less than a year ago. The same stampings now cost over $300. Maybe that's what it costs to sell the stampings and make money.
Two people who are in the tool and die field have estimated that it would cost a minimum of $50K to press the first stampings. If that's the case (and I have no idea whether it is or not), then one would have to sell 500 stampings at $100 to recoup the initial investment. Or sell 1000 stampings at $50 each.
Of course, who would go to so much trouble and expense and not expect a return on their investment? Not me. Considering that additional expenses will be incurred once the die are manufactured -- the cost of steel, labor, insurance, administration, and on and on) -- one could probably assume that the actual cost of each stamping might double. So, $200 ea for stamping 500 sets, $100 ea for stamping 1000 sets.
I would think that the smart business man, when considering that receiver sales might simply peter out after a certain (relatively small) quantity are sold, would want to make a higher than normal profit margin. (There's also always the possibility the government might decide to outlaw the sale of receivers, and one's entire investment would immediately be lost.) So let's say that the sale price would be double the cost to manufacture. Then you're looking at $400 per set if you sell 500, $200 per set if you manufacture 1000.
All of this is just pure conjecture on my part. I'm just throwing out numbers for the sake of discussion, so don't flame me on this if I'm totally out of the ballpark.
Some guys here are in manufacturing. How far off am I?Some of the other "issues" that they would consider from both sides of the fence would be (but not limited to):
1: Quality and gauge steel-used (I have seen a couple companies selling 80% PPSh-41 receivers in both the standard-length and extended-length.......but the "gauge"/thickness of the steel is not correct...but was chosen due to the abilities and types of machines/presses available to the people manufacturing these........if it is too thin, it will tend to twist more during firing and crack welds....and bend more easily).
2: Possible-Sales-Numbers .... or the ability to sell what you stamp out (Remember, these have been imported for several years......a lot came in through IMA when you could get the front-half of the receiver "un-cut" from just to the rear of the cam-piece to the end of the barrel jacket.....not cut-up. Several other companies have brought these into the US in many different forms/number of DEMIL-cuts. Look back several years ago at the "old" MG42-Board.....they were building semi-only guns then...and Post-86 "Samples". Sources for many of the kits and DEMILed receivers for years was Gun Parts-Corp. .... and IMA...several other were selling these sets.
I just don't see the "market being able to absorb 250-receiver-sets....let alone 500-receiver-sets (??))
3: Buyer remorse......or change of "interests" into another weapon system. (What does the manufacturer do with when he makes 500 sets of receivers at a cost of:
$50,000 for the stamping-dies (costs do not include workers wages, steel, etc. $50k for the stamping-dies).
$______ for the hourly work paying someone to stamp these.
$______ costs for the sheet-steel of the correct gauge/thickness.
$______ transportation of these stampings and storage of same.
After everything....he has to have at least $60,000 to $70,000 invested in a product he has to sell.
4: There are probably 100 to 150 (or more) un-built receiver-sets out there that people are sitting on. Some because they want to build them later......others as an investment to off-set the cost of their builds....other still hoping that the MG-Laws will change in the future.....still others are awaiting builds by current members. Any number of reasons.....some are even set aside by Class II manufacturers for future builds. What does the manufacturer of new receiver-sets do if there is lettle or no market for his product ?
....and what does he do if he starts to have the stamping-dies made ($50,000).....and someone "imports" 100 or 200 DEMILed sets to sell at just below his "break-even-point" ?
I think that there is a lot more to this than just finding someone to make dies and start stamping out receiver-sets.
Regards, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
1: Quality and gauge steel-used (I have seen a couple companies selling 80% PPSh-41 receivers in both the standard-length and extended-length.......but the "gauge"/thickness of the steel is not correct...but was chosen due to the abilities and types of machines/presses available to the people manufacturing these........if it is too thin, it will tend to twist more during firing and crack welds....and bend more easily).
2: Possible-Sales-Numbers .... or the ability to sell what you stamp out (Remember, these have been imported for several years......a lot came in through IMA when you could get the front-half of the receiver "un-cut" from just to the rear of the cam-piece to the end of the barrel jacket.....not cut-up. Several other companies have brought these into the US in many different forms/number of DEMIL-cuts. Look back several years ago at the "old" MG42-Board.....they were building semi-only guns then...and Post-86 "Samples". Sources for many of the kits and DEMILed receivers for years was Gun Parts-Corp. .... and IMA...several other were selling these sets.
I just don't see the "market being able to absorb 250-receiver-sets....let alone 500-receiver-sets (??))
3: Buyer remorse......or change of "interests" into another weapon system. (What does the manufacturer do with when he makes 500 sets of receivers at a cost of:
$50,000 for the stamping-dies (costs do not include workers wages, steel, etc. $50k for the stamping-dies).
$______ for the hourly work paying someone to stamp these.
$______ costs for the sheet-steel of the correct gauge/thickness.
$______ transportation of these stampings and storage of same.
After everything....he has to have at least $60,000 to $70,000 invested in a product he has to sell.
4: There are probably 100 to 150 (or more) un-built receiver-sets out there that people are sitting on. Some because they want to build them later......others as an investment to off-set the cost of their builds....other still hoping that the MG-Laws will change in the future.....still others are awaiting builds by current members. Any number of reasons.....some are even set aside by Class II manufacturers for future builds. What does the manufacturer of new receiver-sets do if there is lettle or no market for his product ?
....and what does he do if he starts to have the stamping-dies made ($50,000).....and someone "imports" 100 or 200 DEMILed sets to sell at just below his "break-even-point" ?
I think that there is a lot more to this than just finding someone to make dies and start stamping out receiver-sets.
Regards, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
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Sledge303
Just a small detail I would like to mention here. The PPSH-41 receiver (%100) as produced by "Wise Lite Arms" is a very heavy guage material. My comment to WLA was that it's construction reminded me of the bumpers I had on my first (1970 Plymouth) station wagon! I have been told it is the same thickness as the original Russian guns. They spent a lot of time with the design/die's to make the overall shape exactly as the originals. They did have to lengthen the shroud to carry the longer barrel (16 inch). However, the end result is a one piece receiver (from muzzle to the dissassembly release catch at the rear) that was formed with multiple stampings. I have attached some images.Blanksguy wrote:Some of the other "issues" that they would consider from both sides of the fence would be (but not limited to):
1: Quality and gauge steel-used (I have seen a couple companies selling 80% PPSh-41 receivers in both the standard-length and extended-length.......but the "gauge"/thickness of the steel is not correct...but was chosen due to the abilities and types of machines/presses available to the people manufacturing these........if it is too thin, it will tend to twist more during firing and crack welds....and bend more easily).
Regards, RichardS.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
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salt6
- General
- Posts: 1262
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:11 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: NE Okla
- Contact:
I think there would be a better opportunity if you went the MP44 direction.
Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
John Newton (1725-1807)
____________________________________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
____________________________________________
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
John Newton (1725-1807)
____________________________________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
____________________________________________
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
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Sledge303
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lmsc07ct
Perhaps he could partner with someone like Angola, to produce both a set of stampings available to us commoners, and a fully built semi for those with more money and less time. I don't think anyone is going to be bringing in receiver scrap anytime soon, and even if they did, BRP made enough money on MG42's and YES other weaponry to stay in business when receiver scraps were available at scrap metal prices. If he can, why not someone else? If he's as busy as you say with the stemple project, then when is he going to get around to the mg42s, and given the price jump on the stampings, at what price will the new 80% or display receivers be out there? I'm an interested customer in stampings, but at $950 you're asking more than a PAIR of Chevelle hardtop quarter panels, and more than a single convertible chevelle quarter, both of which are GM licen$ed parts.
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toolman_556
New post from another member: Cold Steel Solutions will begin selling MG42 receiver blanks in January 2007. No prices or specifications posted on their site yet.
http://www.coldsteelsolutionsincorporated.com/
http://www.coldsteelsolutionsincorporated.com/
" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government . . . . When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fear the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Sledge303
MG42 receiver blanks??? Would this be like a huge AK flat? I suspect it would take a heck of a "jig" to bend! Actually a whole series of "jigs" and a whole lot of force! How thick is a MG42/Yugo M53 receiver wall? I can't imagine starting with something like the "flat" used with the PPSH-41 receiver and having to form it with hand tools into the actual receiver. The areas that are curves and not bends would need to be pressed with a die.
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