Need Help converting Wise Lite Gen 2 to 308

[radar645]

I have a Wise Lite Gen2 S/A that I converted over to 308 from 8mm. The gun runs fine in 8mm using Romanian 8mm steel cased ammo. However when I try to run 308 in the gun, when I load the gun with the charging handle
it will fire that round eject and feed the next round but then I get a light primer strike. I'm using British Radway 308 ammo. I'm using the RTG Parts delux kit which is a MG3 feedcover with the "O" feedplate , 308 booster cone and I have tried both MG3 belts, Nato m13 links. Same issue each time. Any help is greatly appreciated.
The gun is always clean, and well lubricated .

[JBaum]

before you pull the trigger for the second shot, have you checked to see if the bolt is fully forward? (open the top cover and push forward on the pin that operates the feed lever.

If it is, the next thing to check is to make sure the hammer is fully cocked.

[Der Alder]

Being that gun runs fine with 8mm Romy I wonder if the Radway .308 has harder primers like Yugo 8mm. Does the Gen 2 WL use a heavy AR hammer spring? If not you can get one from BRP and see if that helps. That or try different .308 ammo. I like South African .308 and have good luck with it it my guns, but its getting hard to find.

Other things to check...see if the hammer is completely clearing the rear of the bolt carrier. Any contact can take energy away from the hammer causing light strikes. Trying painting the hammer with machinists dyekem to see where/if it contacts anything besides the FP.

Also you could try taking the grip off and see if the bolt and carrier slides freely. Any binding can take away energy and not allow the bolt to fully seat when combined with stripping rounds, then when the FP is hit much of its energy is absorbed when the bolt moves forward.

It could be the Radway is just a tad harder to set off than the Romy and one of the above issues could be showing up then.

[radar645]

Thanks, waiting to get some range time. I was wondering if something was slowing the bolt down and not allowing it to completely lock up. Want to try some different 308 ammo. I don't think the primers on the Radway ammo are any harder than the Romanian 8mm. The strike on the 308 ammo is ever so slight. Would changing the booster cone make any difference . Althrough I don't know of anyone who offers different size 308 cones. Thanks to all for your input.

[JBaum]

There are nozzles of different sizes around, but not very many sellers know enough to measure them and list them according to size.

According to the manual, 14 mm and 11.5 mm are for shooting 8mm Mauser, the 11 mm is for .308

[Blanksguy]

radar645,
You have asked a question about "something slowing the hammer down".......and it has been answered in two separate post.
A hammer can be slowed down by "any" contact with the bolt-assembly as the hammer moves from "cocked-position" till it hits the rear of the firing-pin.
You can check this a number of ways......one being just clean the inside-rear of bolt-assembly "and" the hammer until it is dry/no-oil......then use either machinist-layout-dye........or a "Black-Magic-marker" and good eyes.

As you have stated.....it fires 8mm Romanian ammo well/reliably........but not the .308 British. My suggestion at that point is to find out why one type of ammo but not the other. Things like/but not limited to:
1: Hard vs. soft-primers. (Change ammo to one box of commercial .308.......it may not be hot enough to cycle the action as Military ammo would......but would allow you to check the Hammer with a different .308 ammo without waiting on long shipping times.
2: The slowing of the Hammer....where it hits the "soft-primers' hard enough....but not the hard-primers. (this was addressed earlier.).
3: "Headspace" on the .308 Barrel vs. bolt used. That bolt may be correct with the 8mm barrel......but not with the .308 barrel headspace.
4: When it does not fire......check to see where the hammer is located.......and where the hammer is located after chambering of ammo........by this I mean to check to see if the hammer is not being cocked after the first round fires....and just follows the bolt-assembly forward.....giving you a soft primer hit. Cure for this........is the next size smaller Booster-Cup/"Nozzle"...........which we all know you have switch when going from 8mm to .308 .....correct (?).

....and last would be "feed-back"..........if we don't hear something, we guess you/we fixed it. Addressing other issues with this gun will always be better in this thread.....then to "reinvent the wheel" in additional threads.....correct (?).
Note.....I have not gone into issues of mismatched cam-pieces, etc. as they did not effect the gun when it fired that 8mm ammo reliably earlier.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired

[radar645]

Thanks Blanksguy
For the post, didn't mean to re-invent the wheel here just new to this site.
Was able to get some more range yesterday, and still no success . Tried some different ammo and still no success even tried some blank ammo with the MG3 blank adapter from RTG parts same result.
No success in both cases ,after reading your post "Blanksguy "here is what I can see is happening
I charge the gun it chambers a round I fire the chambered round it will eject chamber another round but the hammer is not cocked and nothing when I pull the trigger.
Which leads me to believe your statement in the previous post that the booster cone is off and I need a smaller one. But as I stated earlier where does one find a smaller one'

Thanks again everyone for your help

[JBaum]

You need to find out what size nozzle you have, first. Someone here may have a smaller one, if you can tell us what size you have now.

Or you can go to a machinegun show and find one there (take calipers with you). Where are you (state)?

[Blanksguy]

radar645,
As jbaum has posted.....you need to know what size hole is in the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" that you are having issues with (short-stroking).
Just measure the front hole on the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle".....and let us know what size you have......possibly another Board member here has a smaller one you can purchase (?).

Another option may be Wiselite.......I recall that they use to make/sell a Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" selection in the past......but may not be doing that now......(??).

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[radar645]

Thanks for all your help both John and Richard. Well after talking to John about the MG3 combo 1-piece muzzle cone/booster from RTG parts I understand this is not adjustable. If I want to go to a smaller booster cone I need to stick with the MG42 set-up 3 piece booster cone,barrel bearing and muzzle cone /flash hider. I used my dial calipers and here is what I came up with. The MG3 one piece combo unit measured out at 10mm or .395 in inches.
I received three booster cones with the gun from Wise Lite and as far as I can tell I have the following :
1. a 10mm that I tried in the gun and it still short strokes. 2. a 11.5mm that runs the 8mm fine. 3. a 13mm cone that I have never used. Is it possible to go down to a smaller booster cone than a 10mm ?
I do have one more question I seem to have read where someone added allen head plugs to the holes around the muzzle cone/flash hider to increase back pressure is this possible ?
Thanks again Jim

[Blanksguy]

radar645,
From what you are telling us.....and correct me if I am wrong (from your reply above)......
The 10mm Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" did not work for .308 ammo.....correct (?).

You only have a couple of options available at this time.....
1: Either locate a 9mm to 9.5mm Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" to try with .308 ammo that you are using......or:
2: Use "Hotter" ammo and/or loaded with heavier-bullets which should raise up the back-pressure inside the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle"..............or last:

3: Measure the length of your Barrel-Bearing.........if it is the shorter 1.855" length Barrel-Bearing......try to locate and use the slightly longer 1.970" long Barrel-Bearing. The Barrel-Bearing times the high pressure for release into those "rear-slots" at the rear of the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle........by using the longer Barrel-Bearing, you allow this high-pressure to stay inside the Barrel-Bearing a fraction of a second longer than the shorter Barrel-Bearing would allow. (Note....I may be off slightly on the Barrel-Bearing measurements as this is by "memory"....but it will be close.).

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[JBaum]

Yes, you could go smaller for the hole size, I would try 9.5 or 9 mm, but not any smaller as it's getting very close to the 7.62 mm of the bullet diameter. I doubt you'll find a nozzle with that small of a hole. You might need to make one by welding the hole a little smaller, and then redrilling the hole to make it round and the right size. Extreme care must be taken to get the hole centered perfectly. Using a lathe to drill the hole is a good choice for that. Put the nozzle in the chuck, and the drill be in the end stock.

The holes around the base of the flash hider are exhaust holes. Don't plug those, or you may have something bad happen.

I'll guess that what you read was about with allen screws was for an adjustable blank firing adapter.

The longer barrel bearing is only needed if the receiver was made too short. The inside of the bearing will ride on the front of the barrel, so it won't actually adjust anything, and as long as your barrel goes in and out of the gun OK, don't mess with it. It is not "used" to time anything, and is not something to be swapped out for your purpose.

Blanksguy, you're scaring me.

[radar645]

Again thank you both, I really feel a 9.5mm booster would do the trick it really seems like it is close to working.
John you are right about plugging those holes I felt the same way just wasn't sure. Years ago when I was building a AK74 I drilled out the trunnion rivets without removing the barrel ( not to smart ) and drilled a hole right on through the barrel. So I thought no problem I will just weld it up , yeah right ! The weld held maybe for two shots then blew a hole right on through the receiver and peeled the metal right back. The good Lord was protecting me and I didn't have my hand anywhere near it. Ruined the receiver but it taught me a valuable lesson. This MG42 is a whole new animal and can be frustrating at times but I 'm learning and that's what counts for me. With your help I will find success, Thanks again guys for everything

[Blanksguy]

jbaum,

Incorrect.......the longer Barrel-Bearing actually sticks out of the front of the receiver into the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" about .010" more than the shorter Barrel-Bearing..........and that additional length allows the high-pressure a split second longer inside the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" area (and acts on rearward push to barrel/bolt-assembly for faster rear movement and unlocking-time..........this translates into a longer "dwel-time" for high-pressure in the system......and if you look at early MG42s, a combination of longer Barrel-Bearing-length coupled with the 10mm Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" hole-size allowed those even higher RPM above the later MG42 RPMs.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

[JBaum]

Blanksguy: So you're suggesting he change the barrel bushing to correct a low recoil problem? Really? How many low-recoil guns have you fixed this way? Should everyone with a semi do this to increase their recoil?

Of course putting the wrong part in a gun that isn't made for that will change things. How much will it change the recoil? How will that affect the gun? You don't have a clue, and neither do I.

Recommending that someone use the wrong part to affect how the gun shoots is irresponsible.

That's not what the longer style bushing was made for, and it isn't the standard method used to correct the problem he has. Different size nozzle holes are made for that exact correction. It's the only correction I've found in any of the manuals. Nor do I think his semi auto gun needs to have an increased rate of fire - how does that correlate to his problem, anyway? Increasing the shock wave of the pulse is only one of the factors of recoil. The length of time of the pulse is another. Which one would changing the barrel bushing affect? What will it damage? I don't know either. The Germans decided to use different nozzle sizes for that purpose. I think I'll stick with their choice, since they build the guns, and they seem to know what they're doing. It seems to me that if putting in a different barrel bushing were the proper way to change the amount of recoil on the barrel, they'd do that.

Unless you've been studying things in your laboratory, and haven't gotten around to publishing the results yet, perhaps you'd care to share your source of where it's recommended to change a barrel bushing to correct a low recoil problem?

[Blanksguy]

Hello Jbaum,
I guess we are about to discuss the ideas of pressure and where I get my information....correct (?).
I really don't want to scare you though........and none of this is "personal". I respect your information, and Translations of German Manuals.

First.....the Germans (during WWII)....made two lengths of Barrel-Bearings that are commonly found. Again, without digging them out again for measurement, I'll go by memory and share that the two Barrel-Bearing lengths were/are 1.855", and 1.970".

I based my recommendations from owning three C&R MG42s.........just the basic knowledge of how/when this "pressure-pulse" works/operates in the MG42 (US Army weapons instructor, 20+ years service)......and working with "low-pressure" pulses that are used when operating Blank-Firing-Weapons and the adaptors that they use for over 20-years.
You do recall that "Blanks" operate at a far lower pressure than live ammo.....correct (?).....and that this causes many "headaches" for reenactors trying to Blank-Adapt their MG42s/SA42s due to "low-pressure".

Based on how and when these pressure relief openings "OPEN" to operate the MG42......if the pressure is not high enough to operate the weapon to move the Bolt-Assembly fully to the rear......how are you going to make more pressure (?). I don't see cutting recoil-spring-length as ideal in this case.
I only see a few ways of doing this (unless you know more that you could add in....):
1: By changing the ammo loading to either a "hotter-cartridge".......which raises the pressure level inside the chamber/barrel-bore, "and" inside the Booster-Cup area......or loading with heavier bullet (?)
2: By restricting the pressure more. ...... by substitution of Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" with a smaller exit-hole.....which we both suggest 9.5mm....and 9mm.
3: Last way that I know of is by changing the "Pressure-Relief Exit-Timing" of the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" with German-Factory-Parts from WWII made for this gun. If you look at the "timed-event".....as the barrel is pushed to the rear the length of that barrel-bearing "times" "when" it relieves pressure by its length.......to use a longer Barrel-Bearing would allow the pressure to remain a split second longer.....correct (?).

As for it being "irresponsible" (?)......no more "irresponsible" than your (and my) suggestion to use 9.5mm or 9mm Booster cups which were never made for the MG42. I believe that the smallest Factory .308 Booster-Hole is 10mm (?). We are trying to assist a fellow Board-Member with information and ideas on how to correct a non-standard gun.

Last.......I have searched.....but can not find anything in the manuals about the longer 1.970" Barrel-Bearings except a short note in Musgraves book (German Machine Guns) of years ago where he talks about the German using 3-4 different Barrel-Bearings/Barrel-muzzle-profiles early. Both of my examples are "Waffenampt" and are identicle except length.
Because of the number of these longer Barrel-Bearings that I have found (they aren't hard to find), I believe they were used in earlier MG42 up into 1943 when they lowered the rate of fire (RPM), or by "Factory" use for guns with "issues" of one type or another.

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired

[Der Alder]

Getting back to the OP. You said you have the deluxe .308 coversion kit from RTG which among other things is the one peice MG3 flash hider/booster and MG3 barrel bearing which is slightly longer than the older 8mm types. Those two are meant to work together.

Are you using both MG3 type parts together? You should have plenty of boost pressure using these two parts. I will say that once I tried mixing an old style 8mm bearing with the MG3 FH'er and the gun did not cycle well; which is why I'm asking.

You can however use the older 8mm FH'er with the older 8mm type shorter barrel bearing and of course a properly sized booster nozzle.

Your MG3 FH'er/booster and bearing combo should be providing you with enough pressure to operate your gun unless the ammo is under powered. When running .SA .308 or Paki .308 my semi guns will cycle fine with the MG3 front parts I mentioned....or it will run fine with the 8mm FH'er combined with the older bearing and 10mm booster nozzle. I tried an 11.5 nozzle and both my guns become a single shot though. IMO if you need less than a 10mm nozzle, either your ammo is under powered or something is binding the gun, like a tight spot or even tight links.

As a side note, it's worth noting that I see some here using the term "barrel bushing" and barrel bearing as if they are the same...they are not. The bushing is the sloted part that is captive in the front of the receiver and is not removable (without major surgery) in which the barrel bearing reciprocates in. I only bring this up because terminology can sometimes cause confusion if not used correctly.

[Blanksguy]

Thank you Der Alder.

Moving along.......questions arise from this that have come up, that could/should be addressed at this time.
1: What has Wiselite said about this "short-stroking" action of your Wiselite SA42 when you called their customer line (?).....and their suggestions for possible cures (?).

2: As jbaum has brought up the use of non-standard parts as bad (?).........as an MG42 Board, is the use/suggestive-use of "non-standard" parts and/or the mixing of MG42/MG42-59/MG1/MG3 and M53 parts an acceptable practice (?). I have to ask prior to making suggestions.

As we know the SA42 in its different forms.....Wiselite is one form where they have extended their current receiver to adjust for use of a full-length Recoil-Spring........using an added bumper to extend the Buffer forward to operate the Ejector-Assembly. But as I see the SA42......the main hurdles are only the added weight to the Bolt-Assembly......and those of the semi-only parts in the trigger-mech. adding additional pressure to be overcome when cocking the hammer, etc. This added "weight" and/or "spring-pressure of Hammer-Spring/Disconnector have to be overcome.........and we need to discuss safe ways to do this in small increments so that we do not destroy someone's SA42......or MG42 if we are working on a full-auto gun......correct (?).

When you/we look at the Wiselite "system (or any SA42), we need to be able to either add working pressure (or length of time that pressure is present) in the "gas-assisted" parts at the muzzle from the fired cartridge.............or remove "weight" from moving-parts to allow the "system" to fully work. This is the challenge that we have been working for many years with as the semi-only SA42s came to being......and reenactors trying to use underpowered "Blank-ammunition" to operate the heavier parts in an SA42 have found out.

Does anyone see any other way to accomplish this (?).
What are others' views on this subject (?).
Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired

[Blanksguy]

Der Alder,

On the subject of the MG3 FH and Barrel-Bearing..........knowing the added weight for the SA42 Bolt-Assembly that will probably end up being the "challenge" that must be over come............would it be better to suggest the switching back to MG42 FH, Booster-Cup/"Nozzle", and Barrel-Bearing as jbaum and I have suggested (?). The MG42 parts being more adaptable/adjustable by switching parts......that added advantage of Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" being able to be changed (?).

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired

[Der Alder]

Der Alder,

On the subject of the MG3 FH and Barrel-Bearing..........knowing the added weight for the SA42 Bolt-Assembly that will probably end up being the "challenge" that must be over come............would it be better to suggest the switching back to MG42 FH, Booster-Cup/"Nozzle", and Barrel-Bearing as jbaum and I have suggested (?). The MG42 parts being more adaptable/adjustable by switching parts......that added advantage of Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" being able to be changed (?).

Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired

The MG42 8mm type is much more tuneable and that's exactly what I'd do at this point.

My thoughts are that the one peice MG3 FH'er combined with it's barrel bearing (which the OP has) is desiegned to work with 7.62 NATO ammo. Provided he is using mil-spec 7.62, it should fuction...unless there is a problem else where.

Which is why I mentioned looking for binding and such earlier. These semi's run right on the edge of fuctionality at best. It dosen't take much to cause issues and going to a lower power caliber can bring issues to light, which of course over boosting can sometimes over come.

Things I would check; binding on rails, hammer clearance, make sure the recoil spring is seated properly (which can matter on a semi), run it wet, try different ammo and belts. Being that it ran good in 8mm maybe switch back and run a few hundred rounds through it and break it in before switching calibers.

Part of a good tuning kit should be various size booster nozzles, but another thing that is often overlooked in these semi guns is it can be helpful to have various size recoil springs lengths in your tuning kit. The added weight and length of the semi bolt carrier plays a big role in these semi guns. Springs are pretty cheap so it doesn't hurt to have a few on hand.

I have several that are a coil or 2 longer and or shorter. If it is short stroking try a shorter one (less spring=less resistance), if its not going fully into battery or needs a lttle umph stripping rounds try a slightly longer one. But again this is only after you make sure there is no binding elsewhere that you could be masking. Just don't go too long to where it binds on full recoil.

I even have firing pins that vary in sizes. JBaum used to sell a nifty FP gauge set and I used that to make several FP's within its range which can fix ammo related problems. Thing is the tuning phase of these guns is often the trickiest most time consuming part and changing ammo types can make things more complicated. I'd find a good base line with the 8mm set up and 8mm ammo being that it ran good with that, run a few hundred rounds through it and go from there. Just my 2 cents.