I intend to test my Yugo M53 with Israeli 8x57JS Tracer Ammo from 1950.
Maybe you have the same ammo over there, so has anyone expieriences with this ammo.
Thanks for any answer.
Israeli Tracer Ammo
-
JBaum
- Administrator
- Posts: 3126
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: NE Ohio
- Contact:
Using ammunition that is 50+ years old is very risky in an MG42. If you have a 1/100th of a second delay before the gun fires, many problems can occur, such as the cartridge firing when the bolt it not locked to the barrel. The old brass cartridge can become brittle and break off inside the chamber, or the cartridge can crack, or pull apart. Maybe the powder will not fire with full strength, and the bullet will only go part way down the barrel. The next cartridge will blow up the gun. This has happened many times here with people using old military ammunition from many years ago.
I would recommend against using such old ammunition in an gun that shoots so fast. In a rifle, there is little danger. With a machinegun, good quality ammunition is very important to the safety of the shooter, and to keep the gun functioning as it should.
I would recommend against using such old ammunition in an gun that shoots so fast. In a rifle, there is little danger. With a machinegun, good quality ammunition is very important to the safety of the shooter, and to keep the gun functioning as it should.
-
JBaum
- Administrator
- Posts: 3126
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: NE Ohio
- Contact:
When .308 surplus was common, I bought 5 different brands. They all worked fine, but the stuff in the heavy green plastic 200 round bags with the carry handle built into one end ran a little faster than the other stuff. It all worked well.
I've seen what running the old 8mm mauser ammo does to a gun when it screws up. It ran for a while, but the rate of fire started to slow down and speed up, then it blew. It took me 20 minutes with a needle and tweezers to dig out all the crap from my buddy's arm, then I fixed his gun. I had to drill the barrel door rivets off the guy's 42 and used a block of wood and deadblow hammer to get his door straight again. I've seen pictures of a receiver bulged from the old ammo blowing up. A semi-auto certainly would be safer to fire the old junk, but I'd never put it in a gun I wanted to keep in good condition, or one that ran 25 shots a second.
I say it's like running gas you siphoned from a junk yard car in your new BMW.... it may run, but can't be good for it, and will spit and sputter, and will certainly cost more in the long run than buying fresh gas to start with. You wouldn't do it to a car you liked, why do it to a gun?
For 8mm mauser, I won't run the old stuff at all. I bought brass and loaded/reloaded my own. I found that 3 shots from the same brass (one first load, two reloads) was all the brass could take. After the third shot, I could see stress marks in the sidewalls of the shell, and with 4 shots, I had several shells with sidewall cracks. The MG42 pulls the brass out of the chamber before it has a chance to shrink after firing. It's a terrible amount of stress on good brass. Stuff that is brittle or inconsistently made 50 years ago certainly doesn't improve with age, and it's just a blow-up looking for a place to happen.
In short, there is a reason the old 8mm ammo is so cheap. Misfires, hard primers, soft primers, bad powder, bad primers, hang fires, it's corrosive, and brass gets brittle with age. I had one cartrdige that did a 6 second hang fire in my 98k. Very scary stuff.
Kids have a term nowadays for using junk ammo in an expensive machinegun. It's called "DUH!". Picking brass shrapnel out of my arm isn't how I want to spend the afternoon just to save 20 cents a shot.
I've seen what running the old 8mm mauser ammo does to a gun when it screws up. It ran for a while, but the rate of fire started to slow down and speed up, then it blew. It took me 20 minutes with a needle and tweezers to dig out all the crap from my buddy's arm, then I fixed his gun. I had to drill the barrel door rivets off the guy's 42 and used a block of wood and deadblow hammer to get his door straight again. I've seen pictures of a receiver bulged from the old ammo blowing up. A semi-auto certainly would be safer to fire the old junk, but I'd never put it in a gun I wanted to keep in good condition, or one that ran 25 shots a second.
I say it's like running gas you siphoned from a junk yard car in your new BMW.... it may run, but can't be good for it, and will spit and sputter, and will certainly cost more in the long run than buying fresh gas to start with. You wouldn't do it to a car you liked, why do it to a gun?
For 8mm mauser, I won't run the old stuff at all. I bought brass and loaded/reloaded my own. I found that 3 shots from the same brass (one first load, two reloads) was all the brass could take. After the third shot, I could see stress marks in the sidewalls of the shell, and with 4 shots, I had several shells with sidewall cracks. The MG42 pulls the brass out of the chamber before it has a chance to shrink after firing. It's a terrible amount of stress on good brass. Stuff that is brittle or inconsistently made 50 years ago certainly doesn't improve with age, and it's just a blow-up looking for a place to happen.
In short, there is a reason the old 8mm ammo is so cheap. Misfires, hard primers, soft primers, bad powder, bad primers, hang fires, it's corrosive, and brass gets brittle with age. I had one cartrdige that did a 6 second hang fire in my 98k. Very scary stuff.
Kids have a term nowadays for using junk ammo in an expensive machinegun. It's called "DUH!". Picking brass shrapnel out of my arm isn't how I want to spend the afternoon just to save 20 cents a shot.
-
Bullwinkle
- Stabshauptmann
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:58 pm
- Location: Sunny South
I CAN NOT speak from first hand experiance with Izzy 8mm dated 1950's, BUT I CAN speak from 1st hand experiance from Izzy .308 dated 1970-1980 (that's 30years NEWER than your ammo)... It's CRAP....okay for a semi or bolt gun...or even a 1919 with the massive side plates and top covers......the TZ80 Izzy .308 will rupture a case every 4 out of 5 rounds....in a SHEET METAL /Stamped receiver MG42..that's a BULGED receiver and lot's of shrapnel in the shooters hands and legs......Izzy ammo is/was stored in HOT open warehouses/ammo bunkers... I
n 1950 Israel was barely a functioning country...so ammo quality was NOT GOOD....do yourself and your 42 a favor and get some BETTER quality ammo!!
n 1950 Israel was barely a functioning country...so ammo quality was NOT GOOD....do yourself and your 42 a favor and get some BETTER quality ammo!!
Mess with the Bull and you'll get the HORNS!
-
PvtJoker
-
propos
I agree with jbaum and bullwinkle. If I had a $40,000+ MG there ain't no way I would run old surplus ammo in it. It's one thing to have a hang fire in a bolt or semi, but another in rapid firer. (That's what Doc Savage's men called their machine pistols). I have some old Pakistani .303 that I call training ammo. Lots of hangfires. Which can be embarrasing when one pulls the trigger and then jerks back like it went off. Good stuff for curing flinches.
It seems that a lot can happen in a very short time when firing a gun shooting 25 rounds a second. Why take the chance. Save the old ammo for the bolt gun, not the machine gun. Any round that doesn't ignite in my SA42 gets shot in the Mauser.
I remember one time when I was shooting my .38 snub nose. I was shooting DA. One round didn't sound right so I didn't pull the trigger on the next. Good thing I didn't. I had a bullet stuck in the barrel. If I had pulled the trigger again, well, bad things could happen. Same thing happened when I was shooting a P-38. Round didn't sound right. I had a bullet stuck in the throat of the bore. However my buddy had a S&W .38 hold together when he had the same thing happen. Only that time he did pull the trigger. The gun held together but getting those 2 bullets out of the barrel was a real pain.
Be safe guys. Every time you pull the trigger you're setting off a mini grenade.
It seems that a lot can happen in a very short time when firing a gun shooting 25 rounds a second. Why take the chance. Save the old ammo for the bolt gun, not the machine gun. Any round that doesn't ignite in my SA42 gets shot in the Mauser.
I remember one time when I was shooting my .38 snub nose. I was shooting DA. One round didn't sound right so I didn't pull the trigger on the next. Good thing I didn't. I had a bullet stuck in the barrel. If I had pulled the trigger again, well, bad things could happen. Same thing happened when I was shooting a P-38. Round didn't sound right. I had a bullet stuck in the throat of the bore. However my buddy had a S&W .38 hold together when he had the same thing happen. Only that time he did pull the trigger. The gun held together but getting those 2 bullets out of the barrel was a real pain.
Be safe guys. Every time you pull the trigger you're setting off a mini grenade.
-
swissgunner
-
longhorn109
- Oberstleutnant
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:10 pm
- Location: UK
I will have to have a moan now. You paid for a fully working full auto M53 what I paid for a deactivated one. It's NOT FAIR 
Good advice on the ammo though. The thought of picking hot brass out of you arms , face and eyes is a sobering thought. Money can be earnt but body parts don't grow back.
I hope you have fun with it. If I could have one I would be deaf and poor with a big grin on my face.
Good advice on the ammo though. The thought of picking hot brass out of you arms , face and eyes is a sobering thought. Money can be earnt but body parts don't grow back.
I hope you have fun with it. If I could have one I would be deaf and poor with a big grin on my face.
-
JBaum
- Administrator
- Posts: 3126
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: NE Ohio
- Contact:
I hope I don't get in trouble here for getting off the subject:
A good method to remove a stuck bullet from the bore is to put a few drops of oil down the barrel, then drive it out with a wooden dowel rod. Put a shell (fired cartridge) over the end of the dowel so that you don't split it with a hammer. Cut it to the length of the barrel before starting, to minimize the chance of breaking the dowel, and you may need to get more than one rod because it may break in the middle if you don't keep it perfectly straight. It doesn't damage the bore the way using a cleaning rod can.
If the last shot didn't sound "right", chances are that it wasn't. Checking the bore is cheap, especially now that barrels are over $100.
A good method to remove a stuck bullet from the bore is to put a few drops of oil down the barrel, then drive it out with a wooden dowel rod. Put a shell (fired cartridge) over the end of the dowel so that you don't split it with a hammer. Cut it to the length of the barrel before starting, to minimize the chance of breaking the dowel, and you may need to get more than one rod because it may break in the middle if you don't keep it perfectly straight. It doesn't damage the bore the way using a cleaning rod can.
If the last shot didn't sound "right", chances are that it wasn't. Checking the bore is cheap, especially now that barrels are over $100.
-
propos
jbaum has it right but , yeah, hear comes the but. It depends on what type of bullet is in the bore. A pistol bullet is generally flat and usually can be driven out without much problem from either the front or back. If you can drive it forward from the breech you don't stand the chance of mushrooming it like you would if you beat on the nose. That is if it is a SP or HP and it's not a revolver. If a revolver, well, your options are limited. A FMJ is another story.
Rilfe bullets are usually pointed and if a FMJ it could split the end of the wooden dowel and then you have a problem with the rod being wedged in the bore. If you can drive it out from the rear towards the muzzle it will go better since the bullet is already engraved by the rifling. Of course it all depends on where in the bore the bullet is.
If you can get one of those space age plastic muzzle loading rods they would work well. They're pretty much unbreakable. And they wn't hurt the bore. They come in different diameters. If you add a brass flat or hollow nosed jag then the end will be better protected. I bought mine from Track of the Wolf.
Just my .02.
But then again you could always try to win a Darwin Award by trying to shoot the bullet out.
Rilfe bullets are usually pointed and if a FMJ it could split the end of the wooden dowel and then you have a problem with the rod being wedged in the bore. If you can drive it out from the rear towards the muzzle it will go better since the bullet is already engraved by the rifling. Of course it all depends on where in the bore the bullet is.
If you can get one of those space age plastic muzzle loading rods they would work well. They're pretty much unbreakable. And they wn't hurt the bore. They come in different diameters. If you add a brass flat or hollow nosed jag then the end will be better protected. I bought mine from Track of the Wolf.
Just my .02.
But then again you could always try to win a Darwin Award by trying to shoot the bullet out.
Why are people such ammo snobs? Im not implicating anybody here, it just seems that everyone has a horror story about ammo from country X or components from country Y. Years ago I jumped on a bunch of Paki .303. The stuff was crap, lots of misfires and hangfires. But it was cheap as hell and I fired it. I think that some of the fun of shooting guns older than myself is tracking down old ammo. I now own a semi auto 1919 that Ive fired Aussie, Brit and Paki .308 from. People talk about that Paki 308 like is gonna blow up and cause a nuclear meldown. Ive never had a problem. The WORST ammo Ive fired is My Turk 8MM, whic fires about 14 inches high because its so hot. I seems to me that the people who have the most trouble are guys running full auto guns, and I REALLY question their headspace and timing adjustments. Has anybody here ever had a truly catastropic wapon failure due SOLELY to ammo? (in any type of semi, again, I see the worries in full auto, but lots of that also has to do with timing) Just wonderin'.....????
My soultion for everything "Get a bigger hammer or larger caliber!"
-
JBaum
- Administrator
- Posts: 3126
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: NE Ohio
- Contact:
We started out talking about full auto. We still are. LIfe is a game. Play the odds, take your chances. We were asked for opinions about shooting 50 year old ammo in a full auto gun. We gave them. If you disagree, disagree without telling the rest of us we're snobs and don't know how to maintain our guns properly.
The chances of something bad happening are less in a semi than in a full auto. If your ammo is misfiring, has hang fires, the cases split, and it's corrosive, it doesn't make any difference how fast the gun runs. It'll cause a problem sooner or later. The only difference between a semi and full auto is that full auto guns have more ammo run through them and are therefore are more likely to have a problem sooner than a semi.
If you haven't seen a blown barrel or receiver due to junk ammo, you don't get out much.
Shoot what you want in your gun.
The chances of something bad happening are less in a semi than in a full auto. If your ammo is misfiring, has hang fires, the cases split, and it's corrosive, it doesn't make any difference how fast the gun runs. It'll cause a problem sooner or later. The only difference between a semi and full auto is that full auto guns have more ammo run through them and are therefore are more likely to have a problem sooner than a semi.
If you haven't seen a blown barrel or receiver due to junk ammo, you don't get out much.
Shoot what you want in your gun.
-
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
- Field Marshal
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 am
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: Minnesota
Let's put it this way. Say you buy some low quality ammo, like Pakistani or Turk 8mm, and you own both a bolt action rifle and an MG-42. Now, say out of 6 cases you have 3 bad rounds. A bolt action rifle always has perfect bolt lockup to seal the breach before you pull the trigger. An MG-42's lock up depends on proper timing, parts in good condition and not excessively worn or mismatched and out of spec, and cleanliness of the parts. You go to the range and shoot 300 rounds out your Mauser, and 3000 rounds out your MG-42. What are the chances that the MG will have a problem resulting in damage compared to the old dependable Mauser k98? You be the judge, ScottD.
We are not being snobs, we are speaking from experience with the problems associated with old FA guns using old surplus ammo. Every round that fires is a roll of the dice, where a jackpot blows the locking lugs off your MG-42 barrel or results in an explosion even worse. Having seen one guy within 20 minutes ruin an MG-42 and blow the top cover off his 30 cal 1919 MG, and having seen several sites like Black River Militaria showing blown MG-42 parts, and after hearing at least 5 other stories from gun owners about their guns being damaged from an errant surplus round, and after spending $100 to repair my own $45,000 MG-42 after blowing the locking lugs off a barrel with a Turkish round, you can understand why I have become a bit more choosy in what I feed my guns. The weight of experience alters the perspective of intelligent gun owners. The idiots who won't learn or listen blow shitt up and end up in the hospital.. if they are lucky. For them, it's only a matter of time . . .
Get the point?
We share our experiences with ammo here to help others decide what is best for them to fire in their guns.
We are not being snobs, we are speaking from experience with the problems associated with old FA guns using old surplus ammo. Every round that fires is a roll of the dice, where a jackpot blows the locking lugs off your MG-42 barrel or results in an explosion even worse. Having seen one guy within 20 minutes ruin an MG-42 and blow the top cover off his 30 cal 1919 MG, and having seen several sites like Black River Militaria showing blown MG-42 parts, and after hearing at least 5 other stories from gun owners about their guns being damaged from an errant surplus round, and after spending $100 to repair my own $45,000 MG-42 after blowing the locking lugs off a barrel with a Turkish round, you can understand why I have become a bit more choosy in what I feed my guns. The weight of experience alters the perspective of intelligent gun owners. The idiots who won't learn or listen blow shitt up and end up in the hospital.. if they are lucky. For them, it's only a matter of time . . .
Get the point?
We share our experiences with ammo here to help others decide what is best for them to fire in their guns.
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
Knight's Armoury
Knight's Armoury
I would imagine that running full auto with bad or dubious ammo will also have more opportunities for something to go wrong-there is a lot going on real fast,and no 'stop' time between shots.In semi if something goes wrong or sticks,you know real fast.In FA, in the same amount of time you can run lots more ammo through,which is not good if you have something stuck in the barrel.Another opinion,please.What do you think of the Romanian 8mm?How about Portuguese? I once read don't use ammo from anyplace you wouldn't drink the water,both of these places I would stick to Coke! Thank you. --- bil
Thank you. --- bilJbaum, please go back and read my FIRST line and see where it says "Im not implicating anyone here". Now relax, take a breath, we are all friends here.....
All I was saying is that I hear ALL the time that certain ammo is garbage, but nobody has ever had more than a ruptured case. Everybody always says "well, a friend of mine...." that kind of stuff.
Believe me, I would not fire 50 year old, tarnished foreign ammo out of a full auto. It just seems that many guys out there will only fire their own reloads (which is more dangerous) or commercial manufactured new ammo.
Now, I hope we have this straightned out. I didnt mean to offend. Just question. If I wanted to get into a mudslinging contest, Id go over to the AKFiles............
All I was saying is that I hear ALL the time that certain ammo is garbage, but nobody has ever had more than a ruptured case. Everybody always says "well, a friend of mine...." that kind of stuff.
Believe me, I would not fire 50 year old, tarnished foreign ammo out of a full auto. It just seems that many guys out there will only fire their own reloads (which is more dangerous) or commercial manufactured new ammo.
Now, I hope we have this straightned out. I didnt mean to offend. Just question. If I wanted to get into a mudslinging contest, Id go over to the AKFiles............
My soultion for everything "Get a bigger hammer or larger caliber!"
"It just seems that many guys out there will only fire their own reloads (which is more dangerous)...."
What? The assumption here indicates that the people do not follow published reloading loads and use the proper primers in their reloads. Data to back this up?
I contend that reloaded ammo can be safely used if the cases are properly prepared (full sizing) proper primers (cci military type) and a load worked up to a level to insure proper operation of the auto loading.
What? The assumption here indicates that the people do not follow published reloading loads and use the proper primers in their reloads. Data to back this up?
I contend that reloaded ammo can be safely used if the cases are properly prepared (full sizing) proper primers (cci military type) and a load worked up to a level to insure proper operation of the auto loading.
-
propos
Well, let's see. I've been reloading ammo for over 30 years. In that time I've had a bad primer, forgot the powder in one case. I can't figure out how I did that as I look in every case before the bullet is seated. It was that 9mm I fired in the P-38. I've had cases split. .38 Spec. nickle cases do that after about 20 reloads. Never hurt the gun. They go in the scrap bucket.
I.ve never had a catastrophic case failure. You know why? Because I follow the manuals and don't try to make super bomb loads out of the cartridge. If I want more power or speed I'll buy a gun using a more powerful round. When it comes to reloading I'm pretty conservative. I don't try to see how far I can push something.
I've actually had more problems with factory ammo than I have had with my reloads. Split cases on the first firing, duds, hangfires, primer seated sideways. (I've done that already, but I check each cartridge) That was a Federal .32 auto. Got a new box from Federal after I called and complained.
I load for pistols, rilfes, and black powder cartridges. I don't reload for shotguns. Not interested in doing so.
If I were ever fortunate to buy a FA, I would damn sure use the best ammo I could find. It just makes sense.
BTW, I'm not an ammo snob. I'm an ammo whore. I even hate to shoot my reloads sometimes because they look so damn pretty. If I were rich, I'd live in an ammo dump. Uncle Scrooge can have his money vault. I'll take a ammo dump any day over a ball of string. And I'd like to see the Beagle Boys try to steal my ammo.
I.ve never had a catastrophic case failure. You know why? Because I follow the manuals and don't try to make super bomb loads out of the cartridge. If I want more power or speed I'll buy a gun using a more powerful round. When it comes to reloading I'm pretty conservative. I don't try to see how far I can push something.
I've actually had more problems with factory ammo than I have had with my reloads. Split cases on the first firing, duds, hangfires, primer seated sideways. (I've done that already, but I check each cartridge) That was a Federal .32 auto. Got a new box from Federal after I called and complained.
I load for pistols, rilfes, and black powder cartridges. I don't reload for shotguns. Not interested in doing so.
If I were ever fortunate to buy a FA, I would damn sure use the best ammo I could find. It just makes sense.
BTW, I'm not an ammo snob. I'm an ammo whore. I even hate to shoot my reloads sometimes because they look so damn pretty. If I were rich, I'd live in an ammo dump. Uncle Scrooge can have his money vault. I'll take a ammo dump any day over a ball of string. And I'd like to see the Beagle Boys try to steal my ammo.