Home-made receiver for sale question

Traveler57 · Post by **Traveler57** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:17 pm

Ok, I take a chance and ask dumb questions. I collect milsurps, but am new to building.

Can someone clear up how the law works.

I have searched this site and 1919a4 and others but can't seem to find the clear answer.

So, here is what I think I know, and I need your comments.

If someone has a 100% receiver, it is a firearm and needs to go through an FFL
if it is over state lines. Of course, same as for a completed firearm. But what about
a shop, in my own state, selling me the receiver? Is this done just as with other face-to-face sales,
per your own states laws? In my state, as long as the selling party has the legal right (i.e. licensed gun owner) to own a firearm they can
sell four firearms per year, FTF. Of course, maybe the builder would have to do his own registration of the receiver before he could transfer it to me?
I will post this same question on my local forum, to get my states information.

But my primary question is about a self-built reciever or firearm made with a self-built receiver. If I just keep the firearm for myself, forever, then I am good. (I think.) Again, for my particular state, I would have to send a form to the state to "register" the firearm.

But when and if I ever wanted to sell the completed firearm, what are the rules? I think I read that you have to engrave the receiver with YOU as the manufacturer and give it a serial number. For example, buying a ORF or AA made 1919a4 seems to be a straighforward firearm sale. And if I want to buy or resell the ORF 1919a4, it would be straightforward.

More to my current confusion. What do you do with a self rewelded MG42 or M53 receiver? Do you add your name as the manufacturer? Leave it as is and use the same, original, serial number? I realize that people keeping there builds for their own use, would generally not have to deal with these questions.

Thanks in advance.

Post by **DARIVS ARCHITECTVS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:23 pm

I have had the very unhappy experience of having to turn down the purchase of a fine home made semi Auto MP-44, because the maker did not possess a gun manufacturers license, and also the firearm design was not submitted to BATFE along with the excise tax being paid. One can assemble a semi auto firearm, possess and shoot it. But without becoming a licensed gun manufacturer, it may not be sold or transferred intact to another individual. This does not apply to antique (pre-1898 design) firearms or firearms being transferred to the government or a law enforcement agency (those guys seem to exempt from everything than bans cool stuff don't they?). The builder MUST keep the firearm. The firearm was manufactured by an individual as defined by 27 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), Section 920. In the MP-44 sellers case in my experience, the gun receiver, which is originally German, was chopped by torch to be decommissioned, and is now considered a US remanufactured part. But to be able to sell is, since it was home built, it must be re-decommissioned in the same manner as specified by the BATFE. It has to be torch cut in the same cuts the BATFE CURRENTLY calls for when decommissioning recievers. That's truly sad, since a second chopping will most likely render it useless permanently. It was quoted to m by a BATFE agent that transferring that firearm to another owner would be "contraband".

If you build yourself a firearm for your own use, the following must be followed:

PART 478â€”COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Â§478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of Â§478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings - REMADE N/A
(2) Barrels â€“ REMADE N/A
(3) Barrel extensions N/A
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) N/A REMADE
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears N/A (removed permanently)
(14) Disconnectors N/A (removed permanently)
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards N/A Repoduction
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

Now, even though the MP-44 proposed to be purchased in my case met the rules above, being 10 German parts or less, and the balance of the parts being reproduction US made parts, The fact that the design was not submitted for approval to BATFE prior to sale and the builder had no gun manufacturer's license still blocks the sale or transfer.

This might seem pretty unfair, since the semi-auto MP-44 has huge historical significance, and is also less effective as a weapon in general than many firearms, such as the semi auto AK-47 rifles currently available by gun manufacturer's like Century (crappy quality control) or Arsenal of Las Vegas (fine quality AK-47's). The situation seems unbalanced when viewed from this perspective, but the BATFE's purpose in having gun manufacturer laws structured the way they are is to prevent mass production of firearms by those persons not paying the excise tax to become licensed gun manufacturers. It has the secondary effect of preventing restoration of semi-auto historical guns by individuals in small numbers and transferring or selling them to other collectors. The law is a huge blanket that puts a dent in our fun.

Post by **762x51** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:07 pm

Here is what the ATF has to say on this subject:

Reference:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a6

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

******************************************************************
Here are all of the references cited by the ATF in the above paragraph
******************************************************************

Reference:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

18 U.S.C. 922(o) Applies only to NFA (Machine Guns, etc) Weapons

18U.S.C. 922(r)
(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply toâ€”
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

26 U.S.C. 5822 Applies only to NFA (Machine Guns, etc) Weapons

Reference:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cfr/

27 CFR 478.39

Â§ 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of Â§478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

27 CFR 479.62 Applies only to NFA (Machine Guns, etc) Weapons

27 CFR 479.105 Applies only to NFA (Machine Guns, etc) Weapons

Post by **Bil** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:49 pm

Now you guys have really confused me.I depend on facts,and I still dont quite understand.Here is a yes or no question.Can an indiviual buy a de-mil kit-ie Sarco,or mg 42,re-build it for his own personal use,using the original parts?semi-auto and never to be sold.Is it legal,or is it not? ---bil

Post by **762x51** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:22 pm

Â§ 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

Well, I'm no lawyer but what I read is that if I don't use more than 10 of the parts listed in my weapon, then I can build it and be in compliance with the law.

I don't read anywhere that it's illegal for me to sell the weapon at some future date

I cannot find the reference that DARIVS ARCHITECTVS referred to - 27 CFR Section 920 - so I cannot comment on his reference.

Post by **justashooter** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:33 pm

atf has an opinion letter out on selling a homemade receivered gun. it's on a link in their webpage. you can do it, but they are opining that you must mark with your name, city, and state, and a unique serial, as all liscensed manufacturers do. this is an opinion in which they suppose you are a manufacturer, even though you are not engaged in the business.

the opinion is shakey, and might be defeated in court, with you arguing that you are not engaged in the business, and are therefore not subject to the statute, and the atf arguing that the intent of the law was to make sure all arms are sourceable.

either way, you can sell a homebuilt receivered gun under their opinion letter, provided it is marked. you do not have to cut it.

Post by **762x51** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:51 pm

Just found the letter in question... See: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

Excerpt from this letter:

Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up
machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable
semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver
must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit
full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that
incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.

Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to
using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR Â§ 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered
to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is
thus a violation of Â§ 922(r).

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal
Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the
firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully
transferred in the future.

OK - What does 27 CFR 478.92 have to say you ask?? Well, it's much too long to post here so here is the link:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .2&idno=27

Basic requirements are (But you should read the entire section)

For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(A) The model, if such designation has been made;

(B) The caliber or gauge;

(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation)

(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State

Regards,
Orin

Post by **DARIVS ARCHITECTVS** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:18 am

Gee wiz, Orin. I thought my response was wordy enuf.

Post by **762x51** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:27 am

Hay DA - You said:

The firearm was manufactured by an individual as defined by 27 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), Section 920. In the MP-44 sellers case in my experience, the gun receiver, which is originally German, was chopped by torch to be decommissioned, and is now considered a US remanufactured part. But to be able to sell is, since it was home built, it must be re-decommissioned in the same manner as specified by the BATFE. It has to be torch cut in the same cuts the BATFE CURRENTLY calls for when decommissioning recievers.

I don't see anywhere that the ATF said that at all. Looks to me that if the builder complies with 18 U.S.C. 922(r) and 27 CFR 478.92 then he's good to go.

Regards,
Orin

propos · Post by **propos** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:13 am

I've seen this very discussion before on the AK sites. Apparently, according to the whimsical ATF, currently if you engrave the model, your name, address, serial number, and caliber on the receiver, you can sell the firearm. However if you sell more than a given number, 50 IIRC, you are in violation of the law. You will then be considered a manufacturer. The number could possibly less than 50.
It seems that these regs change as rapidly as the waether though.
BTW, how would one go about paying the excise tax on a firearm that one made?
Isn't it curious how the power to tax is the power to destroy as Tom Jeff said. Manufacturing isn't illegal. Not paying the bribe is. Same with MG's. The gun isn't illegal. Not paying the tax on it is. What it comes down to is the object by itself isn't illegal, but the fact that you didn't cut the gov. in on the action is the illegal act.
Greed is a terrible thing.

Post by **DARIVS ARCHITECTVS** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:54 am

So how does one go about arranging to pay the excise tax? I'd love to purchase that SA MP-44 Reichpapars has. BATF said that without the excise tax receipt, the gun purchace would be "contraband".

propos · Post by **propos** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:27 pm

Yeah, I agree. How would you go about paying the excise tax. What would be the governing agency. How many myriad forms would you have to fill out. I've seen mention of the excise tax, but no explanation of how or to whom you pay it.

Post by **drooling idiot** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:46 pm

there is a "loophole" for manufactures of less than 50 guns a year so they don't need to pay the tax. they're small potato(e)s not worth chasing.

Orin will you work with me to build this into a stickie. i thought we had this answered before , it be nice to get everything organized into one thread and have it saved for reference.

Post by **762x51** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:46 pm

drooling idiot wrote: Orin will you work with me to build this into a stickie. i thought we had this answered before , it be nice to get everything organized into one thread and have it saved for reference.

I'll be glad to - Give me a few days to clean it up and organize then I'll send it to you to post as a stickie.

Orin

Post by **drooling idiot** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:07 pm

I was offering to help you organize it , if your going to do all the work yourself then you must post it under your name .[/b]

Post by **striker754** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:14 pm

Yikes. Way too complicated in here. You can sell a gun you build. Just don't sell them frequently like a manufacturer would. You dont have to mark the gun to sell instate unless your state says so. You have to mark the gun to sell out of state.

Oh and there are no penalties on the books for 922r :-P

Sledge303 · Post by **Sledge303** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:29 pm

striker754 wrote:
Oh and there are no penalties on the books for 922r :-P

I followed your presentation concerning 922r some time back. I never saw anyone contest your findings. I would like to see someone versed in firearms law take a hard look and read their opinion. My personal opinion is that you are correct....

Post by **striker754** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:40 pm

Sledge303 wrote:
striker754 wrote:
Oh and there are no penalties on the books for 922r :-P
I followed your presentation concerning 922r some time back. I never saw anyone contest your findings. I would like to see someone versed in firearms law take a hard look and read their opinion. My personal opinion is that you are correct....

They went away with the sunset of the AWB. Read the AWB, its very interesting. They add in 922 (r) to some of the penalties, like 5 years in jail, but then once it sunset those are removed.

Check it out.

Traveler57 · Post by **Traveler57** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:57 am

WOW! I guess I am glad I asked the question now. Actually, I have read the 922r text a few times, which is why I think I got confused in the first place. (I also read the striker/922r threads from last year, a few days ago and really learned a lot.) So, with the different opinions in these posts, I am hoping that Orin is the one that I will follow. But all the above posts are excellent and I humbly thank you all for the continuing education. The other source of my confusion on the engraving my own build with my own name, came from seeing 80% receiver manufacturers offering to put the USGI engraving (i.e. Saginaw Steering Gear, etc.) on their 1919a4 side plates.

So, should I assume that no one here has ever sold one of their home-builts?

My two major reasons for asking this are:
1) What are others doing with regards to your will and heirs?
If I get into this building "fun" I would like to know that I can will (i.e. transfer) my SA builds to my sons without problems. I'm not leaving this earth anytime soon, or anything like that, but I have already gone through this question with the rest of my milsurp collection for my sons. (I also have firearms from my father and grandfather that I want to make sure stay in the family.)
2) If I end up getting fully caught up with the building bug, then is it not a reasonable idea to buy two kits, build two firearms, and then sell one completed SA just to support my next kit/reciever project? This would be only 0-1 firearm sold per year, so I am far from being a commercial manufacturer, per BATF. I would think it would follow the same guidelines I use with my 03FFL/C&R. I am in this as a hobby ONLY and not for commerical gain or a business.

Thanks and I will keep reading and learning......

propos · Post by **propos** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:50 am

Just to be on the safe side I would put the proper information on the receiver. I know someone who sold a home built AS15. HOever it wasn't an 80% receiver. The only concern I would have is liability. If the gun Kabooms and someone is hurt...well I leave the rest up to you.
Of course if you sold a gun manufactured by a manufacturer the same thing could happen. As a matter of fact I'm going to sell an AR15 that I built using Fulton Armory parts which includes the registered 100% receiver.