922 regs?

Post by **masterangler-01** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:58 pm

What us made parts are you guys using to satisfy the 922 law?

Post by **masterangler-01** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:00 pm

Also does it make a difference if I make the parts myself? Is that legal or not?

Post by **M1 Tanker** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:03 pm

This is posted in the wrong place, but I'm sure the mods will get it moved.

Im not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in a holiday inn express last night. Here is some info.
Yes, you can make your own parts. The law is imported parts, not about the number of US parts you have. I made and sold grips on this form so everyone could have some compliance parts.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr478.39.htm

Code: Select all

[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR478.39]

[Page 119]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, 
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun 
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this 
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily 
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution 
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or 
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political 
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of 
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the 
provisions of Sec. 478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into 
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the 
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1 ) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2 ) Barrels
(3 ) Barrel extensions
(4 ) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5 ) Muzzle attachments
(6 ) Bolts
(7 ) Bolt carriers
(8 ) Operating rods
(9 ) Gas pistons
(10 ) Trigger housings
(11 ) Triggers
(12 ) Hammers
(13 ) Sears
(14 ) Disconnectors
(15 ) Buttstocks
(16 ) Pistol grips
(17 ) Forearms, handguards
(18 ) Magazine bodies
(19 ) Followers
(20 ) Floorplates

[T.D. ATF-346, 58 FR 40589, July 29, 1993]

Post by **JBaum** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:35 pm

c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1 ) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings *
(2 ) Barrels
(3 ) Barrel extensions
(4 ) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5 ) Muzzle attachments
(6 ) Bolts
(7 ) Bolt carriers
(8 ) Operating rods *
(9 ) Gas pistons *
(10 ) Trigger housings
(11 ) Triggers *
(12 ) Hammers *
(13 ) Sears *
(14 ) Disconnectors *
(15 ) Buttstocks
(16 ) Pistol grips
(17 ) Forearms, handguards *
(18 ) Magazine bodies
(19 ) Followers *
(20 ) Floorplates *

My thinking is that the parts marked with an asterisk do not apply to the semi-auto MG42 to start with, so that only leaves 10 for sure, but the magazine body could be construed to mean the belt, so that's a possible 11 "bad" parts total. Put on the US made pistol grips, that knocks it down to 10.

The frame is U.S. made, and that includes the forearm/handguard, since it's all one piece.

"Muzzle attachments" is one category, so that takes care of the booster/nozzle/flash hider as only counting as one piece.

In short, do the U.S. made grips, and I think that would cover it.

robertmcw · Post by **robertmcw** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:37 am

Wouldnt the charging handle be an operating rod? It is on the L1A1 and the STG58 variant of the FN/FAL that DSA makes. I believe someone here was citing something that stated a belt was not on the 922 list but was considered a large capacity feeding device under the now expired assault weapons ban. Also, that ban relating to belts may vary from state to state (eg., Kalifornia still bans feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds). Just having my first cup of coffee and wondering.

robertmcw · Post by **robertmcw** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:50 am

Also, I believe that a part eventually and magically 'becomes' a domestic part if enough mods are done on it in the gool old USA. How much modding does it take? Good question. Would our modded bolts and grip sticks qualify as being domestic vs. imported? Also, is the bolt one or two pieces, a bolt and a carrier like the AR15 or just one piece? Who knows? I still think that the classification itself is somewhat suspect since the BRP gun is I believe considered a firearm and not a rifle and a defendant would make an equal protection claim seeking to have the gun reclassified and the whole case thrown out. If ATFE doesnt agree then somebody may end up spending a lot of money on an attorney to have some court decide and hopefully it will be a court in the 9th circuit. That is why I would advise being overly cautious and using way less than 10 parts.

Post by **M1 Tanker** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:50 am

Yes Robert, I agree. The charging handle is an op rod on an HK and FAL. I would also add the receiver, barrel extension, muzzle device, trigger, hammer, sear/disconnector. I show a total of 14 parts, 15 if you count a drum.

(1 ) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings *
(2 ) Barrels
(3 ) Barrel extensions
(4 ) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5 ) Muzzle attachments
(6 ) Bolts
(7 ) Bolt carriers
(8 ) Operating rods
(10 ) Trigger housings
(11 ) Triggers
(12 ) Hammers
(13 ) Sears or (14 ) Disconnectors
(15 ) Buttstocks
(16 ) Pistol grips
(18 ) Magazine bodies

On mine, I have a US receiver, trigger, hammer, disconnector, trigger housing and pistol grip. A total of 6 US parts and 8 imported parts, as I don't have a drum.

I looked at what ATF counts for the FAL, the AK, the HK/Cetme and the M-14. While we don't have a rulling from ATF, this is my best guess.

Post by **masterangler-01** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Thanks guys! That gets me going in the right direction. Hopefully in the near future I will be able contibute some of what I have learned here and help someone.

Post by **striker754** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:01 pm

Don't write things into the law that aren't there.

(1 ) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings US
(2 ) Barrels IMPORT
(3 ) Barrel extensions IMPORT
(4 ) Mounting blocks (trunions) IMPORT
(5 ) Muzzle attachments IMPORT
(6 ) Bolts IMPORT
(7 ) Bolt carriers US
(8 ) Operating rods NONE
(9 ) Gas pistons NONE
(10 ) Trigger housings US
(11 ) Triggers IMPORT/US
(12 ) Hammers US
(13 ) Sears NONE
(14 ) Disconnectors IMPORT/US
(15 ) Buttstocks IMPORT
(16 ) Pistol grips US
(17 ) Forearms, handguards NONE
(18 ) Magazine bodies NONE
(19 ) Followers NONE
(20 ) Floorplates NONE

You are fine. Triggers and disconnectors depend if they are modded, i dont know if they are. I dont know if the hammer is sufficiently modded either. Either way that leaves you at 10 since the belt is not a magazine. Don't write things into the law that aren't there. Magazine is not defined, therefore it means exactly what the word is. Not belt. Not clip.

And as far as I'm concerned, unless ATF has ruled on this, The wooden grips are not the pistol grips. The weapon STILL has a pistol grip without those. The actual grip stick is the pistol grip. Which is nice because you then have two US parts in one with the pistol grip being the trigger housing.

Post by **M1 Tanker** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:35 pm

Striker are you familar with the HK or Cetme? They have a grip frame with a pistol grip, just like the 42....and the plastic that covers the sides is considered the pistol grip. I based what I feel for my weapon on what I know of the HK, AK, M14 and FAL....all of which I own.

Post by **striker754** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:02 pm

I dont know. Perhaps that is the ATF's position,so be it. it does not make sense though. What ever makes sense with them? Even then, its easy to replace.

Gunmetal · Post by **Gunmetal** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:21 pm

EZFEED, I think that is how you spell it had a letter from the ATF a while back that basically said to make a part US it had to be modified from its original use. I would take this as changing the bolt carrier to fire from the closed position rather then the open would make it US. Then apply this to the grip stick, etc... Just stamp it with your initials and USA if and when they decide to enforce this stupid law then you can battle it out in court. I have made many parts from scratch and just stamped them myself. If you have the machines how can they say you didn't make the part. On many guns the replacement parts have no stampings or markings so who is to say you didn't make it. Maybe they will take it to a metalurgist and an expert who can identify the cuts and the process Blah, Blah, BLAH. Maybe I whatch to much CSI but I haven't seen to many 922 compliance nazi's at the gunshows. I have seen tons of non compliant firearms out there. OK, just follow the law the best you can even though it is vague. Hell, a drinking straw can be concidered a silencer if they want to be dicks.
Better get those out of your house and anything that is tube like that can fit on the end of your gun.
OK, I will stop my rant.

propos · Post by **propos** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:35 am

Just a thought. Since the locking wedge is drilled out to accept the new firing pin extension, wouldn't that be considered a modification of the bolt? So not only is the carrier modified but the bolt head itself also. Just a thought.

Post by **M1 Tanker** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:12 am

According to the letter, it says the part must be significatley altered (redesigned), but doesn't define what that is. Here is the letter:

http://panzer46.net/mg42board/viewtopic.php?t=1472

Post by **JBaum** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:35 pm

Carrying the above message through a bit, significantly altered should mean that the original part cannot function as it was designed. That would mean that the grip frame would be significantly altered, as would the bolt carrier and firing pin holder (wedge). Neither will function as designed after the semi modifications.

If you can play their game by their rules and still beat them, it's their problem.

Post by **762x51** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:48 pm

Of course we all know this entire thread is conjecture until someone actually submits a gun to the ATFâ€™s Tech. Branch for classification, donâ€™t we?

Here is my read on Import vs. US parts count using a US made FSE FAL H-T-S or AR15 H-T-S

(1 ) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings US (Modified imported part)
(2 ) Barrels IMPORT
(3 ) Barrel extensions IMPORT
(4 ) Mounting blocks (trunions) NONE There is no TRUNION â€“ There is a camming piece that a lot of folks call a trunion.
(5 ) Muzzle attachments IMPORT
(6 ) Bolts IMPORT
(7 ) Bolt carriers US (Modified imported part)
(8 ) Operating rods IMPORT This is the charging handle â€“ Same as on the FAL
(9 ) Gas pistons NONE
(10 ) Trigger housings US (Modified imported part)
(11 ) Triggers US
(12 ) Hammers US
(13 ) Sears US
(14 ) Disconnectors NONE
(15 ) Buttstocks IMPORT
(16 ) Pistol grips IMPORT
(17 ) Forearms, handguards NONE
(18 ) Magazine bodies IMPORT
(19 ) Followers NONE
(20 ) Floorplates NONE

Totals:
Imported: 8 ( Numbers 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 15, 16 and 18 )
US Made: 6 ( Numbers 1, 7, 10, 11, 12, and 13 )
None: 6 ( Numbers 4, 9, 14, 17, 19, and 20 )

Regards,
Orin

Gunmetal · Post by **Gunmetal** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:28 pm

That count works for me

robertmcw · Post by **robertmcw** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:26 pm

I believe the term "belt" was in the now expired so called Assault Weapon Ban and since the term 'belt' is not in the list of ten parts a belt should not be included in the count as a part.

18 USC section 921 defines 'large capacity ammunition feeding device' as including a belt:

(31) The term "large capacity ammunition feeding device" -
(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device
manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime
Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of,
or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than
10 rounds of ammunition; but
(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition.

Now, some states still use that language, Kalfornia to be specific, but I do not believe that is current FEDERAL law. If someone can point me to a different citation, I would certainly appreciate it and change my opinion accordingly.

robertmcw · Post by **robertmcw** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 pm

I do think a drum could be considered a magazine.

Post by **striker754** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:18 pm

robertmcw wrote:I do think a drum could be considered a magazine.

Doubt it. A drum on an mg is like an ammo box to a 1919. It holds the ammo. The belt is the feeding device.