legal "landmine"?

How not to see club fed.
fritsch
Oberfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: wisconsin

legal "landmine"?

Postby fritsch » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:50 pm

I think I might have discovered a technically legal "landmine" with building mg42/53s. If it's already been addressed and I missed it, I apologize.

So the BATF approved way to do a "reweld" is to make the grip slot larger, weld in the blocking stud, and grind off the sear lugs on the bolt. OK, but after you get your receiver welded up and finished, isn't it technicaly possible at that point to just hold the bolt back (with lots of stuggling im sure), put a belt in, and let go of the bolt? Shouldn't it continue to fire until the belt's gone? Am I missing something here? Are people inadvertently making MGs for a short period before they alter their locking wedge?

roadrunner
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 11:25 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: alaska

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby roadrunner » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Hi Fritsch, I think what you might be overlooking is that in modifying the bolt for semi auto a floating firing pin is introduced. Along with the trigger group this changes the operating system to a closed bolt rather than open bolt action. Of course if you have a firing pin stuck in the forward position all bets are off. RR

fritsch
Oberfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: wisconsin

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby fritsch » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:31 pm

I'm talking about before you modify the firing pin to float. In the scenario I'm talking about, someone has done their mods required to start welding the receiver (blocking lug, widening grip slot, grinding off sear lug on bolt). Then has successfully welded up and cleaned up the receiver to operate. At that point, before any more work is done to the bolt (and in this scenario the grip pack is irrelevant, semi or full) wouldn't it theoretically be simple to make it fire indefinitely? Just assemble everything except the grip pack, somehow hold the bolt back, put a loaded belt in, and release the bolt.

All this dawned on me after I finished welding up my receiver (with proper mods, mind you) and was using the bolt assembly to put in the rails. I guess what I really want to know is if I should get something modified TONIGHT to alleviate this engineering problem I'm seeing, or if I'm just crazy (and of course crazy is always on the table :lol: )

roadrunner
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 11:25 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: alaska

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby roadrunner » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:16 pm

I can see your point. In that situation it would definately be a runaway. I know some laws refer to Rounds fired per trigger pull. But others to full auto componants, so anyone want to chime in on a legality question? RR

shred
Oberstabsgefreiter
Oberstabsgefreiter
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:57 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: Texas

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby shred » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:13 pm

"pull-back-bolt-and-let-fly" FA is also verboten. See the "Sputter Gun" rulings.

Best plan is not to get into that situation and mod the bolt first, but.....

User avatar
salt6
General
General
Posts: 1262
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:11 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: NE Okla
Contact:

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby salt6 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:37 pm

Any semi auto gun can be set up do that.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.


John Newton (1725-1807)
____________________________________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell
____________________________________________
"I once was one of those men."

salt6

User avatar
JBaum
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: Lisbon, Ohio
Contact:

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby JBaum » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:40 pm

Gee, it's also possible to rebuild it with no modifications at all and make a machinegun, and it's just as illegal, too.
John@German<remove this>Manuals.com

http://www.GermanManuals.com

fritsch
Oberfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: wisconsin

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby fritsch » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:16 pm

I guess I'm not asking "is this legal" because I know operating it in this manner is clearly illegal. It was just something I hadn't seen addressed before. It seams like a glaring problem if you weld your receiver before you do all of your bolt mods, and I just hadn't seen anyone say "make sure the firing pin floats in the bolt before you weld the receiver up". The problem that I'm seeing is the sear lug you cut off to "neuter" it is also the same mod to make it fit in the receiver. The 1919a4 and RPD have two completely different cuts for these two purposes. Are there any other guns that have a neuter and "relieving cut" (for lack of a beter term) in one?

User avatar
M1 Tanker
Oberst
Oberst
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:23 am
Location: VA

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby M1 Tanker » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:09 pm

You can take a 1919 and machine just the sides of the barrel extension, lock frame and bolt to fit in the semi auto receiver and you have an illegal machine gun also if you don't modify the rest. If your worried, modify the wedge first, then grind on the carrier.

fritsch
Oberfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: wisconsin

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby fritsch » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:01 pm

You're absolutely right M1 Tanker. That modification order you described, I believe is stated as illegal by the ATF in the presence of a finished receiver even if you don't operate it like that. It's modifying it to fit in a semi reciever but not modified to no longer be full auto.

And you're right, modifying the wedge would be the way to simply make it not operate in full auto (and don't worry, once that dawned on me, that mod went to the top of the stack). So why in God's green earth did they decide to make it the sear lugs as the thing that no longer makes it full auto and not the locking wedge? Especially when it's also the very same modification that makes it fit in the semi receiver. Am I crazy? There has to be something I'm not seeing here

If I'm wrong about any of this, please chime in. There has to be a thread somewhere deep within the bowels of this place that addresses this.......isn't there?

User avatar
JBaum
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: Lisbon, Ohio
Contact:

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby JBaum » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:42 am

When ATFE makes sense, they sometimes later reverse themselves anyway, so trying to understand their decisions is a waste of time. It's their game, they make the rules, and not following their rules can mean jail time.

It doesn't have to make sense, we just have to do it :D
John@German<remove this>Manuals.com

http://www.GermanManuals.com

User avatar
M1 Tanker
Oberst
Oberst
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:23 am
Location: VA

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby M1 Tanker » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:21 pm

Something to remember here, BATF didn't send out a list that said do these things to be a semi auto. A manufacturer sent in a sample saying we want to do this, whats your ruling. They ruled on what was sent in to tech branch, not on what they thought was the best way to go about it.

fritsch
Oberfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: wisconsin

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby fritsch » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:04 am

Ahhh haa! That makes a little more sense. So let me get it straight. They gave the OK on the end result, and it's up to you what order you make it in to stay legal? And by the way, when I went to drill the locking wedge, I toasted two drill bits. What are you guys doing? Are you using carbide bits? Annealing and hardening? I'll ask in the building section, but I thought I'd post it here, too, because of it's relevancy.

Edit: Never mind, I found the answer in Gungrubbers bolt tutorial. Man, you guys have everything on this sight. It's been such a humbling experience building this thing. I couldn't imagine what it was like back in 2005 pioneering this stuff!

User avatar
M1 Tanker
Oberst
Oberst
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:23 am
Location: VA

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby M1 Tanker » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:33 pm

Correct Fritsch, a FFL07 would send in a sample to rule on the finished product. Its up to us at home to be smart and make sure our build process is safe so at no time do we manufacture something we didn't intend.

shred
Oberstabsgefreiter
Oberstabsgefreiter
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:57 pm
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: Texas

Re: legal "landmine"?

Postby shred » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:53 pm

fritsch wrote:. The 1919a4 and RPD have two completely different cuts for these two purposes. Are there any other guns that have a neuter and "relieving cut" (for lack of a beter term) in one?

The Sterling semi-auto is done similarly-- milling the bolt for the blocking bar also removes the open-bolt catch shelf for the sear. It is best to remove the firing pin nub from the bolt on one of those before cutting the slot.


Return to “Legalities”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest