One of the frustrating things about these old guns seems to be that you have to buy old used springs at premium prices, recently we've seen some newly manufactured springs come to market, but I'd like to see complete spring sets with new true to spec springs.
I've been talking to Eric at Lakeside Machine about producing some of the more obscure and important mg34 springs, he assured me that it could definitely be done but I'd need to find out some technical information about the springs in question in order for him to reproduce them accurately. Is there anyone who can tell me the original spec dimensions (kind of spring, dimensions, and the wire diam or thickness of flat spring) for these springs:
Firing pin spring (this also raises the possibility of an extra power version perhaps for harder primered ammo)
recuperator spring
Bolt Stop spring
and any other spring you'd like to see reproduced to original specs
the reason I cant come up with this info myself is that while I have all the springs mentioned I'm not sure what the original spec would be compared to the old definitely worn in springs I have.
I'll be sure to let everyone know what Eric says about cost as soon as I have the dimensions he needs.
dimensions for obscure mg34 springs?
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junglewalk
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Re: dimensions for obscure mg34 springs?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10934
....I recently posted for the guys here to email Wolff Springs and request them to produce the Firing-Pin spring for the MG-34 bolt.......As you well know, they have quite a few new reproductions for all kinds of fire-arms.
....If they would start with the F/P spring, we would be happy, and then later with the other mg-34 springs....bh
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10934
....I recently posted for the guys here to email Wolff Springs and request them to produce the Firing-Pin spring for the MG-34 bolt.......As you well know, they have quite a few new reproductions for all kinds of fire-arms.
....If they would start with the F/P spring, we would be happy, and then later with the other mg-34 springs....bh
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10934
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.
Re: dimensions for obscure mg34 springs?
Producing what are really by this point in time going to be classed as "custom" springs is by no means a difficult task, technically. I have had to have made several "custom" springs for the line of M4/M16/AR15 ambidextrous charging handles and optical rail mounts I produce for the military market, so I have a pretty good grasp of what the exercise entails from a true production run standpoint.
The only problem is....cost. Almost no one in the spring winding industry wants to quote for less than 5-figure quantities(10,000 pcs mim) at anything approaching an industrial price range (pennies per spring ideally). The problem is that ALL coil-wire-wound springs are all done now on CNC winders, and the real cost issue is in the set-up costs. Once you have the machine set, it is literally really no different in their minds to make 10 springs than 10 million, it is just a matter of run time and raw material costs. As the customer, you get severely dinged on the set-up costs, and raw material wire in small quantities is charged at a hefty up-charge.
A coil-wire spring is (generally speaking)spec-ed by three things:
-wire size, or gauge,
-number of coils (the "wrap")per inch/mm,
-difference between free length and compressed(standing) length, which is known as "rate",
it's easy to spec a spring if you KNOW all three. The first two are easy to measure, the problem with re-creating an old spring is you don't often get to know the last one......old springs are VERY, VERY hard to try and get an accurate data set of what both the ORIGINAL free height and standing height (length) were when freshly manufactured as both change with ANY use. And it this "rate" that is important to the performance of the spring more than anything else.
You really can't take a 65 year old, well used spring and attempt to do much more than make a well educated guess about what those two parameters were originally, so you then have to just go do the cut-and-try routine. That gets expensive usually!!
And people like Wolff Springs...... -REALLY- don't want to go there because of the potential for liability if their well-intentioned "best-guess" re-creation ends up........not working as planned and someone decides that -THAT- spring damaged their valuable old gun. That's why they will usually only sell springs that they can get ALL the ORIGINAL data on, so they can they merely make new-made springs but off the original Mfgrs data.
Good luck on finding the original data for the MG-34!! ;-)
So, while it is a trivial exercise to have custom new springs wound......you aren't likely to find a commercial producer too happy to take on the task....at any price. And if you do, what kind of quantities are you willing to buy to amortize the production set up costs? 10? 50? 500? 1000? You could easily find yourself paying $50.00-75.00 PER SPRING in those small quantities AT COST, plus add in the costs of set ups...another few hundred $$$ likely.
Your best bet is to find a private person who has a decent lathe and knows how to manually wind springs, get with them and spec out what you need and then have them wind a few test springs. If you get a good example that works, then you can send that example spring out with the dimensions you have generated and have a commercial spring winder do a small run via a "copy exact" order.....which means they will be offering to make nothing more than exactly what you sent them with no guarantees other than they copied what you sent them to copy. Which means there is no recourse, if you spec-ed them wrong. ;-)
-TomH
The only problem is....cost. Almost no one in the spring winding industry wants to quote for less than 5-figure quantities(10,000 pcs mim) at anything approaching an industrial price range (pennies per spring ideally). The problem is that ALL coil-wire-wound springs are all done now on CNC winders, and the real cost issue is in the set-up costs. Once you have the machine set, it is literally really no different in their minds to make 10 springs than 10 million, it is just a matter of run time and raw material costs. As the customer, you get severely dinged on the set-up costs, and raw material wire in small quantities is charged at a hefty up-charge.
A coil-wire spring is (generally speaking)spec-ed by three things:
-wire size, or gauge,
-number of coils (the "wrap")per inch/mm,
-difference between free length and compressed(standing) length, which is known as "rate",
it's easy to spec a spring if you KNOW all three. The first two are easy to measure, the problem with re-creating an old spring is you don't often get to know the last one......old springs are VERY, VERY hard to try and get an accurate data set of what both the ORIGINAL free height and standing height (length) were when freshly manufactured as both change with ANY use. And it this "rate" that is important to the performance of the spring more than anything else.
You really can't take a 65 year old, well used spring and attempt to do much more than make a well educated guess about what those two parameters were originally, so you then have to just go do the cut-and-try routine. That gets expensive usually!!
And people like Wolff Springs...... -REALLY- don't want to go there because of the potential for liability if their well-intentioned "best-guess" re-creation ends up........not working as planned and someone decides that -THAT- spring damaged their valuable old gun. That's why they will usually only sell springs that they can get ALL the ORIGINAL data on, so they can they merely make new-made springs but off the original Mfgrs data.
Good luck on finding the original data for the MG-34!! ;-)
So, while it is a trivial exercise to have custom new springs wound......you aren't likely to find a commercial producer too happy to take on the task....at any price. And if you do, what kind of quantities are you willing to buy to amortize the production set up costs? 10? 50? 500? 1000? You could easily find yourself paying $50.00-75.00 PER SPRING in those small quantities AT COST, plus add in the costs of set ups...another few hundred $$$ likely.
Your best bet is to find a private person who has a decent lathe and knows how to manually wind springs, get with them and spec out what you need and then have them wind a few test springs. If you get a good example that works, then you can send that example spring out with the dimensions you have generated and have a commercial spring winder do a small run via a "copy exact" order.....which means they will be offering to make nothing more than exactly what you sent them with no guarantees other than they copied what you sent them to copy. Which means there is no recourse, if you spec-ed them wrong. ;-)
-TomH
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
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junglewalk
- Stabshauptmann
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
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Re: dimensions for obscure mg34 springs?
I still say we here, may help to create a demand for certain wpns/springs, by just simply emailing Wolff springs , requesting them to produce at least a F/P spring for our MG-34 bolts. They will be able to be used in both the semi & FA MG-34.
.......How did Wolff perceive a demand or market for a Thompson SMG spring, or all the springs for a german G-43 semi rifle?.....Maybe guys like us, asked them to produce them?
.......It is worth us making the effort to at least emailing them with a request. They may surprise us one day!.....bobh
http://www.gunsprings.com/home
.......How did Wolff perceive a demand or market for a Thompson SMG spring, or all the springs for a german G-43 semi rifle?.....Maybe guys like us, asked them to produce them?
.......It is worth us making the effort to at least emailing them with a request. They may surprise us one day!.....bobh
http://www.gunsprings.com/home
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.
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TMANNN34
Re: dimensions for obscure mg34 springs?
Howdy all!
Been a while for me here,and welcome everyone to 2012!!
About springs---------------
Earlier last year, or late 2010 I had a small run of g43 gas op rod springs made by a commercial spring maker in Ohio.
Had small lot of 250 made, at about 1.10 each
Not bad for that particular spring, which is quite long!
As long as you have accurate wire size,number of coils per inch, end options(open-closed-ground-etc..) and basic O.D. or I.D. dimensions it is usually pretty straight forward.
I would guess a larger spring like the main recoil spring for the mg34 could be about 15.00 per part, with about 150 or more pc order???? That would be a good price, if you have the coin to fork out for the initial costs!!
Only reason I have not made them if it could take some doing to sell enough to make back your investment back!!!
Just inquire at local spring shops, you may be surprised at what can be done for good prices!!
Tmannn34
Been a while for me here,and welcome everyone to 2012!!
About springs---------------
Earlier last year, or late 2010 I had a small run of g43 gas op rod springs made by a commercial spring maker in Ohio.
Had small lot of 250 made, at about 1.10 each
Not bad for that particular spring, which is quite long!
As long as you have accurate wire size,number of coils per inch, end options(open-closed-ground-etc..) and basic O.D. or I.D. dimensions it is usually pretty straight forward.
I would guess a larger spring like the main recoil spring for the mg34 could be about 15.00 per part, with about 150 or more pc order???? That would be a good price, if you have the coin to fork out for the initial costs!!
Only reason I have not made them if it could take some doing to sell enough to make back your investment back!!!
Just inquire at local spring shops, you may be surprised at what can be done for good prices!!
Tmannn34