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blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Blanking adapting the MG42, MG3 and MG34
Styggo
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blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Styggo » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:27 am

I tried my rebuilt M53 to MG3 with wooden blanks today.
It didnt work very fine...

First three rounds I hade to retract the bolt manually. Then after som tries it shot 2 rounds inn a row, but that was it. one round stuck in the barrel

The brass look like this.
Anyone knows what could have happened?


/Styggo
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Postby TOM R » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:39 am

well the case on the left has a neck dent from hittin the grip when ejected, this is common, the case on the right loks like the neck got smashed tryin to feed into the barrel?, once i get the revised grip from pirate my gun should purr so i will be able to help more though I have no woden blanks to try
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Postby multishots » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:05 am

I think you will need to state which brass is under which situation.
The one on the right look like it hit something with a lot of force when the bullet was gone. My guess is that the bolt pull the brass out, didn't reach the buffer, return to battery, hit the side of the barrel and back into the chamber.
If that is the case, either there is a problem with the hammer area to prevent the bolt from recoil or the main spring is binding.
JMHO, $.01 only.

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Postby Styggo » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:52 am

It is difficult to say which case is which...

I imagine that the left one is more a common thing to happen with many guns...Like the G3 does...it always destroys the case when fired and the weapon cykles it hits the reciever on its way out.
But the other one...uuuuu...

Anyway I have tried both the MG3 bolt and the M53 bolt with the same result.

Well, it seems like maybe it isnt giving enough recoil to push the bolt over he buffer...Or wht do you think?

/Styggo
Last edited by Styggo on Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TOM R » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:55 am

are you usein the correct booster parts with the blank adapter?
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Postby Styggo » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:05 pm

The adapter I have doesnt have a booster at all.
It is a swedish army design and doesnt have a booster.

The original M53 booster is too big (too long) to fit.
Are there any smaller ones do you think?

/Styggo
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Postby TOM R » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:24 pm

I think when you use the blank adapter you are supposed to still use the inernal booster parts, nozzle and forcing cone, can you post a pic of the adapter you have? thanks :D if you goto the rtg site they show the other 2 german styles
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Postby Styggo » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:34 pm

I will send a pic...
However, it doesnt look like a MG-3 or MG-42 BFA at all...as shown on roberts site...



/Styggo
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Postby TOM R » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:50 pm

styggo if you look on the trigger gaurd on your gripstick you should see where the left case in the pic hit and thats why the neck is dented
Last edited by TOM R on Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blanksguy » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:11 pm

Styggo,
I have been lead down this road several times over the last 18 years of Blank-Adapting MG42s and MG34s....to include many other weapon systems.

To help you (which may help others on this web-page) I need you to first do two things:

1: Go to the top of the MG42 Forun Index page and "click" over top of the "MG42 FAQ" Block.....when the next page comes up............"click" over the "Basics" Block for the next page..........then "click" over top of the "Blank Adapting the MG34 and MG42".....and read the information to see if it gives you some more information as to what your gun is doing........then:

2: (Goes back to being lead down this "road" again without all of the information)....please list down what you have (IE: FA MG42 or semi-only SA42 that you have built?.....8x57mm gun...or 7.62x51mmNATO/.308 gun........etc.)....then:
Did/does the gun fire live ammo correctly? (IE: It is easier to Blank-Adapt a gun that you know works....then to try to trouble-shoot a mis-firing gun that doesn't work to start with).

With a working gun.....what did you exchange to make it fire Blanks?....and what Blanks are you trying to use?....what belts are they loaded in (IE: WWII German belts, post-war belts, or DM1 Post-War belts?)

Tell us if the weapon is properly lubricated and clean to start with (Not that you would try it any other way to weed-out possible problems during first operation with Blanks).

A detailed list of the Blank-Adapting parts that you substituted on your gun.....and any "restrictions (and sizes of same) that are used in your system will help us weed out the problem area and come up with suggestions for you. A photo of that Blank-Adaptor that you are trying to use will help.

On a side note.....what are the markings on the head-stamps of the case bottoms that you are trying?......these wouldn't per chance be Israeli manufactured wood-tip Blanks (usually have a blue-colored wood-tip-bullet) ...?

Anyway, give us some more information to help guild you down that "Blank-Adapting" "Road".
Be safe, RichardS.
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Postby Styggo » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:54 am

Blanksguy wrote:1: Go to the top of the MG42 Forun Index page and "click" over top of the "MG42 FAQ" Block.....when the next page comes up............"click" over the "Basics" Block for the next page..........then "click" over top of the "Blank Adapting the MG34 and MG42".....and read the information to see if it gives you some more information as to what your gun is doing........then:


Did that long time ago...:) I printed that PDF and read it everytime i sit on the ***** ....very good reading

Blanksguy wrote:2: (Goes back to being lead down this "road" again without all of the information)....please list down what you have (IE: FA MG42 or semi-only SA42 that you have built?.....8x57mm gun...or 7.62x51mmNATO/.308 gun........etc.)....then:
Did/does the gun fire live ammo correctly? (IE: It is easier to Blank-Adapt a gun that you know works....then to try to trouble-shoot a mis-firing gun that doesn't work to start with).


Actually I will fire live ammo today, and will come back with it if it works or not.
It is a full auto machine gun.


Blanksguy wrote:With a working gun.....what did you exchange to make it fire Blanks?....and what Blanks are you trying to use?....what belts are they loaded in (IE: WWII German belts, post-war belts, or DM1 Post-War belts?)


I changed:
1. Barell 8*57 to 7,62*51
2. 8,57 Feeder tray to MG3 feeder tray
3. 8*57 top cover to MG3 top cover
4. 8,57 Bolt to MG3 bolt. (No difference though.. They work with same result.)
5. 8*57 Muzzle (See pic Item #4) to Swedish army MG3 BFA made for firing the ammo I use. (See pic Item #5 and #7) The 8,57 booster didnt fit (See pic item #3 and #6) Is the bearing different on MG3??


I use the regular Swedish army blanks. They are made by NORMA usually and they work fine in my G3, and in MAG58 (See pic on link and blank ammo) the links I tried are for MG3, M53 and Mag 58 (As on the pic) with same result


Blanksguy wrote:Tell us if the weapon is properly lubricated and clean to start with (Not that you would try it any other way to weed-out possible problems during first operation with Blanks).


It is a complete new weapon, never been used. It is clean and well lubricated, but since it has been used just for test firing it at the factory, it can be more "stif" I guess...

Blanksguy wrote:A detailed list of the Blank-Adapting parts that you substituted on your gun.....and any "restrictions (and sizes of same) that are used in your system will help us weed out the problem area and come up with suggestions for you. A photo of that Blank-Adaptor that you are trying to use will help.


I got 3 BFA:s 2 for firing crimped ammo (See pic item #1 and #2, I suppose. and 1 for firing wooden tipped. (see pic item #5)
I have never tride the crimped ones since that ammo isnt used here at all.

Blanksguy wrote:On a side note.....what are the markings on the head-stamps of the case bottoms that you are trying?......these wouldn't per chance be Israeli manufactured wood-tip Blanks (usually have a blue-colored wood-tip-bullet) ...?


7 and a 6 and 070 at the bottom
They are made in Sweden.

/Styggo
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Postby Styggo » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:40 am

I tried the gun with Liva Ammo too...
It worked just fine with 10 rounds loaded with a nice speed..


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Postby TOM R » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:53 am

I have a feelin there is a internal booster cone for the bfa and you do not have italso the mg3 booster is different then the 42 booster so the inside piece is not gonna interchange look on the rtg site :D
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Postby Blanksguy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:19 pm

Styggo,
Thank you for taking the yime to post not only the photos....but all of the information that went with them......it will help very much.

With your MG42/MG3 set-up to fire WOOD-TIPPED Blanks in 7.62x51mmNATO of Swedish manufacture......your basic problem is that the weapon is not going into full recoil due to loss of gas-pressure. This is shown by the second case in the photo being crushed/neck pushed back because the bolt did not recoil far enough to hit the buffer hard enough to have the ejector-rod/ejector hit the fired case off of the bolt-head/extractor....it just stayed on the bolt and went back forward. The case on the left has a light hit/dent.......but if you check your fired "live" cases you will see that this was normal...or even a light dent for normal operation. MG42s and MG34s are hard on cartridge-cases.

When you said that this is a "completely new weapon"....did you mean an unissued MG42 ?...or an unissued MG3 ?
Note: The belts (in your photos) that you are using are correct...and appear to be of current German DM1 design for 7.62x51mmNATO ammo.

Looking at the Blank-Adaptor that you are using of "Swedish-manufacture"...it looks well made...but may have excess holes for what you are trying to fire....or the center-hole is just a bit too large by .010"....or even .015". Next is that the 7.62x51mmNATO WOOD-TIPPED Blanks may be too weak....not all Blanks are made for "universal" use by all of a countries weapons. Before you try to change the hole-size on your Blank-Adaptor..........try to locate a longer Barrel-Bearing. The one in your gun probably measures about 1.865" long.......and the longer one will measure about 1.970" long. These are interchangeable (except the very early MG42 barrel-bearings with a different inside configuration). By changing to the longer barrel-bearing.....the gas-pressure from the fired Blank should stay inside the booster area for a split-second longer.
Note: With the MG3 Blank-Adaptor you are viewing...you do not use a booster-cup.

Next (if the longer barrel-bearing did not cure the short recoiling of the bolt)....you will have to get a spare recoil-spring and cut off 2-3 coils to allow the bolt to recoil easier. This was one of the items that the Germans used on some MG42s during WWII when they were used for training with Blanks to get better recoil.

Last....if the longer barrel-bearing and shorter recoil-spring does not help......you will have to decide if you want to close up one or two of the holes in your booster rear that are on the out-side circle-area to keep slightly more pressure in the booster-area during recoil. ...."or" you could try to drill/tap the center hole for and allen/hex-bolt that you will drill out for the proper restriction. During testing, drill out several allen/hex-bolts to different sizes for added (or less) pressure. If you do this....start with the same size restriction that you have now in that front/center hole/restriction.........and work down in smaller sizes by .010" until the weapon just operates correctly.

Note: Most 7.62mmNATO wood-tipped Blanks are using a slower burning gun-powder than most Blanks that you come into contact with. This changes the burn-rate......and will effect how the weapon recoils. This may also be one of the reasons why your "system" is losing pressure and not having enough power to recoil the action hard enough to eject the fired Blank-cases.

I will be updating the information of curent testing of my MG42 with different Blank-Adapting systems...and differnt "surplus-Blanks".

Be safe, RichardS.
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Postby TOM R » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:25 pm

:shock: wow tons of info you are the guy to ask for blank adaptin thats for sure :D
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Postby Styggo » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:06 am

Great information!

Ok, I have some comments that might be helpful and some more questions.



Blanksguy wrote:Styggo,
With your MG42/MG3 set-up to fire WOOD-TIPPED Blanks in 7.62x51mmNATO of Swedish manufacture......your basic problem is that the weapon is not going into full recoil due to loss of gas-pressure. This is shown by the second case in the photo being crushed/neck pushed back because the bolt did not recoil far enough to hit the buffer hard enough to have the ejector-rod/ejector hit the fired case off of the bolt-head/extractor....it just stayed on the bolt and went back forward. The case on the left has a light hit/dent.......but if you check your fired "live" cases you will see that this was normal...or even a light dent for normal operation. MG42s and MG34s are hard on cartridge-cases.


This must be the problem, true. As when I shot live ammo it worked just .....PERFECT....MMMMMMM....10 rounds even before I could blink..
and the fired cases looked just fine.

Blanksguy wrote:When you said that this is a "completely new weapon"....did you mean an unissued MG42 ?...or an unissued MG3 ?
Note: The belts (in your photos) that you are using are correct...and appear to be of current German DM1 design for 7.62x51mmNATO ammo.


It is a yugo M53. Probably taken from a mob stock in Yugoslavia. I will send a pic of the weapon...A really nice piece.


Blanksguy wrote:Looking at the Blank-Adaptor that you are using of "Swedish-manufacture"...it looks well made...but may have excess holes for what you are trying to fire....or the center-hole is just a bit too large by .010"....or even .015". Next is that the 7.62x51mmNATO WOOD-TIPPED Blanks may be too weak....not all Blanks are made for "universal" use by all of a countries weapons. Before you try to change the hole-size on your Blank-Adaptor..........try to locate a longer Barrel-Bearing. The one in your gun probably measures about 1.865" long.......and the longer one will measure about 1.970" long. These are interchangeable (except the very early MG42 barrel-bearings with a different inside configuration). By changing to the longer barrel-bearing.....the gas-pressure from the fired Blank should stay inside the booster area for a split-second longer.
Note: With the MG3 Blank-Adaptor you are viewing...you do not use a booster-cup.


The swedish amy uses the MG3 with the wooden tipped blanks, and it seems to work just fine, so I do not think that the ammo is the issue, but more the need of a booster or a longer bearing.


Blanksguy wrote:Next (if the longer barrel-bearing did not cure the short recoiling of the bolt)....you will have to get a spare recoil-spring and cut off 2-3 coils to allow the bolt to recoil easier. This was one of the items that the Germans used on some MG42s during WWII when they were used for training with Blanks to get better recoil.


You said that the MG3 BFA didnt have a booster?
The Swedish BFA is, as I can see when I compare them, a MG3 BFA that has been drilled a hole in and welded an extra piece of to destroy the wood when firing.
I also wrote Dan at Angola arms and he said that the recoil nozzle is 11.5 mm, 8mm is 14.5mm. Due to my bad english I really dont know what he means with the "recoil nozzle" if it is the flash hider, the bearing or a booster.


Blanksguy wrote:Last....if the longer barrel-bearing and shorter recoil-spring does not help......you will have to decide if you want to close up one or two of the holes in your booster rear that are on the out-side circle-area to keep slightly more pressure in the booster-area during recoil. ...."or" you could try to drill/tap the center hole for and allen/hex-bolt that you will drill out for the proper restriction. During testing, drill out several allen/hex-bolts to different sizes for added (or less) pressure. If you do this....start with the same size restriction that you have now in that front/center hole/restriction.........and work down in smaller sizes by .010" until the weapon just operates correctly.


As I see, this must be "Last resort" since it should work by design...I mean, to weld the holes or using a shorter spring.

Blanksguy wrote:Note: Most 7.62mmNATO wood-tipped Blanks are using a slower burning gun-powder than most Blanks that you come into contact with. This changes the burn-rate......and will effect how the weapon recoils. This may also be one of the reasons why your "system" is losing pressure and not having enough power to recoil the action hard enough to eject the fired Blank-cases.


As you say the powder is important, but the swedish wooden tipped blanks powder has a fast burning powder within.
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Postby Blanksguy » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:50 pm

Styggo,
Your added information and questions really help.

The "Booster" on the MG3 is built into the design of the rear-part of the Flash-hider...it is one-piece. On the MG42 you have the Flash-Hider and the Booster-Cup......(what Dan from Angola Armory calls the "recoil-nozzle" because I believe the translation from "German" to "English" for this part is "Recoil-Nozzle").

Other parts that you may want to check is that you have the correct "Buffer" at the rear of your M53........because the MG3 in 7.62x51mmNATO/.308 has two differnt buffers that can be used. (The "R" Buffer for use with the heavy 950 bolt for slower firing at 700-900 RPM.......and the "N" Buffer for the standard 550 bolt for firing at 1,100-1,300 RPM). Many of these were changed back-and-forth from 8x57mm to 7.62x51mmNATO.....so look to see what you have.

When Dan is talking about the Recoil-Nozzle with 11.5mm hole......he is saying "the hole-size for the bullet" in the center of the "Booster-Cup" for firing 7.62x51mmNATO/.308 live ammo.....and the 14mm hole is for firing 8x57mm live ammo. The parts that he talks about look like the MG42 parts (not MG3).

And back to your gun firing those Swedish 7.62x51mmNATO Blanks........
1: You should go back and measure the length of your barrel-bearing and let us know how long it is..........then
2: See if you can find someone in your area to compair your Swedish Blank-Adaptor with another to see if someone made the center-hole larger?...or maybe added extra holes?

It still comes down to the fact that you are losing "pressure" somewhere......or that maybe the Swedish-Army is using 2-pcs. Blank-Barrels like the WWII German Blank-Barrel? These would start to work a little sooner/with less pressure as you are only moving the short chamber-end of the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel. Before you use it.....let me know what it looks like....if the muzzle has a restriction......and what caliber the chamber is in. We do not want to break your MG42........too good of a weapon for this.

Take care and send more information, photos, and questions.
Also, look for WWII German MGz34 and MGz40 Optics and "collimators" for me, along with a WWII German MG42 "Muzzle-Brake-Assembly" (not the Flash-Hider) .....and then e-mail me with what you find (and price) at:

mailto:Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

Be safe, RichardS.
mailto:Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net

PS: For all that are reading in on this.....I am working on an addition to that Blank-Adapting information posted. It will have measurements for making the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrels for both the MG42 and the MG34........and some different set-ups using surplus 7.62x51mmNATO Blanks. I do need Salt6 to send me his mailing address again (sorry, I lost it after the first mailing I sent to you...please send by e-mail to me).....so that I can mail this to you for addition to the Blank-Adapting information you posted for me.

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Postby kdragon » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:44 pm

Blanksguy, I have been watching this tread and I too am trying to fire blanks . You have been informative. I finally tried mine out and got it to work after the second attempt. I welded up a booster cup and drilled and tapped it with a 3/8 hex plug. Then I drilled several 3/8 plugs with different size holes. I got it to work with a .120 size hole in the plug. I also used a 1.970 long booster sleeve altho I had a different length sleeves. The other sleeve was 1.860 long. I used L. C. blanks 1979. I wish I could post pics but my son took my digital to guam for his work for several weeks.

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Postby Styggo » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:32 am

My bearing is 47mm long.

As I understand I should have one that is 50,01mm long

The hole int the booster cup is 11mm, but that doesnt matter as I understand since one doesnt use a booster cup anyway.
The booster cup is 41mm long and will not fit at all in either the MG3 BFA, The Swedish BFA or a MG3 flash hider.

Ill check the buffer too.

/Styggo
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Postby Blanksguy » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:37 am

styggo,
With your MG3 type Blank-Adaptor, you will not be using those "Recoil-Nozzles" (Booster-Cups) as these are used for "Live-Ammo".

The length of the barrel-bearing that you may need is the one about 50mm long (1.970") which will keep the pressure inside the "Booster-Area" just a split-second longer.

Kdragon,
The welding up of a spare MG42 Booster-Cup and drilling it for use with allen-bolts is an option that I listed in my Blank-Adapting information.
Remember though that a "restricted Booster-Cup" is used with a "live-barrel"......and that the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assemblies are used with a rerstriction inside the muzzle of the forward half...it does not use a restricted booster-cup.
With those 7.62x51mmNATO LC Blanks (Blanks with the long-necks with red-cardboard-disc).....what BFA Hole-Size did you end up using with that One-pcs. live barel (in .308) and the long 1.970" Barrel-Bearing? (Note: PLease list this down as a decimal-size, fractional-size, or number # Drill-Size).


Be safe, RichardS.
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