blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Blanking adapting the MG42, MG3 and MG34
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

12thWaffenSS,
As we have stated in earlier threads/postings......the gun needs to fire live ammo well before you try to "Blank-Adapt" it.
Trying to do this the other way around (IE: Trying to get it to fire Blanks first) can take ten-times longer without a working-gun/one that fires live ammo.

.....so, how did the gun fire live ammo at the range (?).
Did you build this gun (?)....or purchase it build from one of the many vendors building/manufacturing these (?)......and what did that vendor say when you called him and said "I am having problems firing the gun you manufactured. It is doing____________________. What do I need to do (?)"

You have Blanks that are "hot" enough for an SA-42/SA-53...and sounds like you are either losing-pressure, something was not made correctly, or something is binding-up.

Possibly problem areas are (but not limited to) :
*************NOTE: I believe that the first seven (7) pages of this thread cover this area and should help you sort this out.....if after re-reading them (and after going to the range to do that live-fire) you still have issues with setting up your gun to fire Blanks, please get back with me with a detailed list of what you have tried, settings/Blanks tried, and what exactly happened.
I will be better able to help you at that point.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by bmwr12 »

Blanksguy wrote:David,
I would realy like to se photo of that "Guiette" manufatured MG-42 Blank-Adaptor......just to see how it is made.

Here is a pic of The guiette BFA. It is not a great pic either. It slips over the barrel and i pretty much combines the barrel bearing and the boostercone all in one.
DSC00880.JPG
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by bmwr12 »

Blanksguy wrote:David,
I would realy like to se photo of that "Guiette" manufatured MG-42 Blank-Adaptor......just to see how it is made.

Here is a pic of The guiette BFA. It is not a great pic either. It slips over the barrel and i pretty much combines the barrel bearing and the boostercone all in one.
DSC00880.JPG
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

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bmwr12,
Your "Guiette" mgf. MG42/SA42 Blank-Adaptor appears to be a just a Blank-Adaptor w/o "keys" to replace the Barrel-Bearing on a standard MG42/SA42 with or w/o tha Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" left inside the Flash-Hider.
This type of Blank-Adaptor (unless I am mistaken) does not move....."and" requires "Hot" Blanks to operate due to the smaller operating-surface-area of the muzzle of the barrel only and not the forward surface of the barrel-beaing.

So tell us.....how did you like its operation and noise "volume" (?).

The only "draw-backs" that I can see with this design is:
1: Possibly during installation (I can see how the inside is made) of getting the barrel in/out of the gun, nor how the blank-adaptor/barrel-bearing would be held in place by the gun's parts under the front-sight/flash-hider-retaining-catch-assembly.....and:
2: If the barrel's muzzle does not have a good fit, this design would "hammer" the rear of the receiver-front-suport for the Barrel-bearing (IE: Inside where this Blank-Adaptor, if it has a lose-fit, would hit the inside of the receiver where the key-ways are cut)......something to watch.

Again, I will go back and say that the loudest Blank-Adaptor that is adjustable for almost all 8x57mm/7.62x51mm/.308 Blanks is still the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly with the Booster-Cup/"Nozzle" removed. It operates with less pressure requirements and allows for more pressure to go out the front in the form of "Noise-Volume".

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by bmwr12 »

You must remove the booster cone to install this BFA. The BFA sits where the booster is under the flash hider. Mr.Guiette told me you are losing minimal pressure since the piece sits over the barrel and creates a piston like effect. This setup in my mind looks almost like a firing sequence of a live round. This is not like using a threaded booster cone.

I am using Satterfield blanks with a .187 BFA(blanks call for a .140) and it runs smooth with no jams what so ever. Do you consider your blanks a hot load like Swanson's? The sound was pretty loud. I would say close to a real 8mm round. At a recent reenactment it was loud enough to ring the ears of the driver(wearing ear protection) on my groups SDKFZ 251/9.I ran probably 500 blanks at the reenactment with no problems at all. I have used this setup on 3 Wiselite M53s we have. They all work good with the same setup.


As for the fit, you need to pull barrel, remove barrel bearing, remove flash hider and booster cone. Then you install the barrel, put the BFA over the end of barrel in the hole where the barrel bearing goes. Once the BFA is in you reinstall the Flash Hider. The parts seem to fit like the live fire parts. I will try to measure them in the next few days. Mr. Guiette seems to be very knowledgeable on blank adapting. He makes an adaptor for just about ever semi/full auto WW2 firearm.


The only real draw back I have seen is that the BFA will not fit a Wiselite barrel. The Wiselite barrels have original locking pieces with a new barrel. The rings on the end of the barrel are a couple thousands too big. You need to use a Yugo or MG42 barrel. I am going to see if Guiette will make these BFA's for the Wiselite barrels.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by 12thWaffenSS »

bmwr12 wrote:You must remove the booster cone to install this BFA. The BFA sits where the booster is under the flash hider. Mr.Guiette told me you are losing minimal pressure since the piece sits over the barrel and creates a piston like effect. This setup in my mind looks almost like a firing sequence of a live round. This is not like using a threaded booster cone.

I am using Satterfield blanks with a .187 BFA(blanks call for a .140) and it runs smooth with no jams what so ever. Do you consider your blanks a hot load like Swanson's? The sound was pretty loud. I would say close to a real 8mm round. At a recent reenactment it was loud enough to ring the ears of the driver(wearing ear protection) on my groups SDKFZ 251/9.I ran probably 500 blanks at the reenactment with no problems at all. I have used this setup on 3 Wiselite M53s we have. They all work good with the same setup.


As for the fit, you need to pull barrel, remove barrel bearing, remove flash hider and booster cone. Then you install the barrel, put the BFA over the end of barrel in the hole where the barrel bearing goes. Once the BFA is in you reinstall the Flash Hider. The parts seem to fit like the live fire parts. I will try to measure them in the next few days. Mr. Guiette seems to be very knowledgeable on blank adapting. He makes an adaptor for just about ever semi/full auto WW2 firearm.


The only real draw back I have seen is that the BFA will not fit a Wiselite barrel. The Wiselite barrels have original locking pieces with a new barrel. The rings on the end of the barrel are a couple thousands too big. You need to use a Yugo or MG42 barrel. I am going to see if Guiette will make these BFA's for the Wiselite barrels.

Thanks for your information. I may have to try this if I can't get the 2 piece blanks barrel to work.
12thWaffenSS

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by 12thWaffenSS »

What size hole do I need to drill in the muzzle set screw if I'm using the 2 piece blank barrel assembly? I'm attempting to use Swanson's blanks or the Atlantic Wall "Green Tip" style blanks.

Thanks!
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS »

12thWaffenSS wrote:What size hole do I need to drill in the muzzle set screw if I'm using the 2 piece blank barrel assembly? I'm attempting to use Swanson's blanks or the Atlantic Wall "Green Tip" style blanks.

Thanks!

That is unknown. One of the guys here may be able to give you a starting point (largest diameter). You grab a pile of set screws and make several different sized orifices to experiment with. Start large and work toward smaller until you get one that has enough energy to work the action reliably. If you change the blanks to a different brand or start making your own, you start over recalibrating until you get the right size one, or risk overpowering your gun and beating up parts until you break something and cuss until you're blue in the face.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

12thWaffenSS,
DA is correct.......due to the different designs of SA-42s.....and the different amounts of worn/used parts that are used in these same guns......"and" and pressure-leakage around the barrel and bolt assemblies........there is just no way to tell you exactly where you will end up as far as BFA Hole-Size.

I would start as large as you could make that BFA Hole-Size/Restriction and work you way down in increments of about .010" at a time. Probably starting at about .228" (#1 Drill and work smaller).

On a side note......all Blanks are loaded differently from different manufacturers of Blanks....with one exception.....mine (Richard Satterfield) and Robert-Walters (Atlantic-Wall-Blanks). Same 8x57mm loading.
Even "Factory"/Military Surplus in 7.62x51mm/.308 Blanks are different.......each country has different weapons....and different Blank-Adaptors....so they each make their own Blanks to "their" own requirements.

And last....as always......the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly is more adaptable to almost all Blanks as it uses less pressure to operate.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by reb62 »

Greetings all,

Here's my new find. Thought all would like to see and perhaps get some feedback on.

MG42 3-piece Blank fire barrel.
8mm
Waffen marked
Smooth bore, no rifling.
Knurling on forend of barrel.
Muzzle end has smaller diameter hole than the barrel bore, with left handed threads.
Attachments
Barrel.JPG
3 piece barrel.JPG
Waffen Ampt.JPG
AR stamp.JPG
K stamp.JPG
reb62

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by reb62 »

Photos continued.
Attachments
rear piece slots 1.JPG
rear piece slots 2.JPG
rocco1911

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by rocco1911 »

WOW nice find congrats were did ya get it? :photos:
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

reb62,
Nice photos....."but" I really can't see if the forward half of the barrel-section screws-on or "slips" onto the other half of the front barrel-section.

If it screws on.....great/looks good......"but" if it just slips onto the other end of the barrel.......I wouldn't use it for "Blank'Firing". The "reverse-threading" has no effect on the Blank-Barrel as it only moves straight in and out during operation.....no twisting.

The problem occurs when the Blanks are fired.......the gasses from the burning-powder expand and the forward part of your three-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly tries to move forward. The only thing holding it still at that point is when it stops at the very end of the "key-ways" in your front barrel-bearing-support welded into the receiver.
Several-years ago.....one manufacturer was making up some 2-pcs. Blank-Barrels that didn't have the "flair" at the end of the front-section........this allowed the front section to move forward with each fired Blanks..........this "hammering" finally would either break-off the keys on the barrel-bearing.....and/or chew-up the key-ways in the support welded into the receiver.

My advice.......use this as a "one-ofs" display for a Blank-barrel that was "unit-made"........I just can't tell if it is made during WWII or "Post-War" as they used old barrels for these Post-War and WWII Barrel-Assemblies were/are available now. I tend to believe that it would be "Post-War" even with the WWII stampings due to the way/style in which it was manufactured.

It does look neat though.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Mikesal »

I was at a reenactment this weekend in St.Louis & a guy in the unit I was with had a wise lite gun. He was using one of those blank adapter jobbies that replaces the flash hider. He told me the gun would run live ammo fine, but it didn't do so well on the blanks. I dunno what blanks he was using (they weren't the full length ones).

From reading the posts, i take it the 2 piece barrel system has a stop of some sort of stop to prevent the tabs on the bearing from hammering the ends of the keyway grooves?? Also, a friend is using a 2pc barrel that doesn't have the grooves in the stub that's screwed into the extension. The end of the barrel is tapped for adapter orifices (of different sizes). He has had some evidence of the tabs hammering the ends of the grooves.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

Mikesal,
You are correct....the 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assembly has a "restriction" at the muzzle of the forward-half.
Full-Length-Blanks are not required......and the MG-42/M-53 can run on 8x57mm Blanks.....7.62x51mm/.308 Blanks.......and if you make up a thrid rear-section chambered for can operate on case-length 30/06 Blanks.

At this time, I have three sets of MG-42 Barrels (9-barrels in total) at my machinest's shop being turned into "sets" of 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assemblies. Each will come with one forward-section and two rear-sections (one in 8x57mm and the second in 7.62x51mm/.308).
This will allow for use of either 8x57mm and/or .308 Blanks.
....and yes, the MG42/M-53 will operate on 7.62x51mm/.308 Blanks.......the MG-3 uses them.

Last (which I should post in the MG-34 Section)......I also have a small run of MG-34 2-pcs. Blank-Barrel-Assemblies being made up in 7.62x51mm/.308 for those that want to fire the cheaper .308 Blanks at reenactments..........I am also looking into the possibility of making up the feed-tray-spacers for the MG34 when using the shorter .308 Blanks if there is a need.

Prices on all of these will be based on the replacement costs for the barrels/materials, the machinest's "labor" (he isn't free), etc.
When they are closer to being finished, I will post these in the For-Sale-Section w/prices.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

I receive the Blank-Barrel-Assemblies for the MG42/MG1-3/M53 back from my machine-shop/machinest a few days ago.......and they look good.

They will be listed down in the F/S-Section........and will come with both an 8x57mm chambered rear-section and an additional 7.62x51mm/.308 rear-section.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by fourfifths1911 »

i have richards two piece set up so i should start with a .288 hole and go down?
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Blanksguy »

fourfifths1911,
Lets first start with the basics of what you have...

1: Please tell us first about your gun.....MG42 (full-auto) or SA42 (semi-only).(?).
2: If a semi-only SA42.....who manufactured this (?).......what trigger-group is installed......and other modifications (?).
3: What caliber is the barrel-assembly (?).....and while we are on "parts"....are you using an 8x57mm top-cover and feed-tray.......or a 7.62x51mm/.308 top-cover and feed-tray (??).
4: Belts..........are they WWII 8x57mm....Post-War 8x57mm....or 7.62x51mm/.308 (??).
5: (...and usually the guys try to go straight to firing Blanks....)....How did you gun fir with live ammunition (?). Remember, you need to be able to sort out the working/mechanical problems with the gun with live ammo......then work on the "challanges" of Blank-Adapting.

Next......."Blanks":
1: What caliber Blanks (?).
2: Who made the Blanks (?).....and what starting-point did the "Blank-Manufacturer" tell you to start at (?).
3: If using surplus-Blanks......who made them and/or if you can take ten of them apart and weight of the powder in ten-Blanks (?).
NOTE: Even with the current surpplus-Blanks......the different country's Blanks are manufactured with different powders, and different powder-charges (weights) for the country that is using them.

The above information will give me a basis for starting out and I won't have to cover all the differences in Parts and set-up point.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by Mikesal »

Hello all, been a while. This weekend at the Rockford public event, our CO brought his ww2 mg42 (he has a class III) which we've used a lot successfully with the 2 pc barrel arrangement. Someone is making a one piece adapter which replaces the booster cone & bearing & uses a real barrel. the adapter is treaded for accepting different plugs & diameters for fine tuning. He had work with another fellow at the St. Joe event who was using one & it worked well, so he bought one too. His goal was to find a way to shoot blanks without tearing up bearings (the 2pc one allows the barrel shaft to shove the bearing into the end of the slots in the bushing & eventually tears them up).

Anyway, the gun wouldn't run at all. From 1 to 6 rounds was the best it would do. The failure mode was the round gets a big dent in the bottom side so it cant go all the way into the barrel (sticks out about 3/4 inch). The dent appears to be coming from the semi circular notch in the end of the barrel extension, as though the back of the round is falling down, out of alignment, & then getting partially pinched between the bolt & extension. Changing the orifice size in the adapter had no effect.

My first guess is the barrel isn't returning to the home position. He told he had the recouperator spring checked out sometime in the past (he is not a gun mechanic's guy) & it was ok. I'm not so sure. The gun wound up being a static display for the weekend.

Any advise or good guesses?
thanks,
Mike S
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Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Post by 12thWaffenSS »

Mikesal wrote:Hello all, been a while. This weekend at the Rockford public event, our CO brought his ww2 mg42 (he has a class III) which we've used a lot successfully with the 2 pc barrel arrangement. Someone is making a one piece adapter which replaces the booster cone & bearing & uses a real barrel. the adapter is treaded for accepting different plugs & diameters for fine tuning. He had work with another fellow at the St. Joe event who was using one & it worked well, so he bought one too. His goal was to find a way to shoot blanks without tearing up bearings (the 2pc one allows the barrel shaft to shove the bearing into the end of the slots in the bushing & eventually tears them up).

Anyway, the gun wouldn't run at all. From 1 to 6 rounds was the best it would do. The failure mode was the round gets a big dent in the bottom side so it cant go all the way into the barrel (sticks out about 3/4 inch). The dent appears to be coming from the semi circular notch in the end of the barrel extension, as though the back of the round is falling down, out of alignment, & then getting partially pinched between the bolt & extension. Changing the orifice size in the adapter had no effect.

My first guess is the barrel isn't returning to the home position. He told he had the recouperator spring checked out sometime in the past (he is not a gun mechanic's guy) & it was ok. I'm not so sure. The gun wound up being a static display for the weekend.

Any advise or good guesses?
thanks,
Mike S

You were at Rockford? So was I. Too bad you didn't post in my Rockford thread. Oh well.
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