New members must contact admin@mg42.us to have their account activated. Please include your username.

salt

blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Blanking adapting the MG42, MG3 and MG34
User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:59 am

I would ask, if it will feed & cycle/fire with just two blanks lying in the fed tray, not linked???......What do the blanks look like then?....If intact, then tight links may contribute to rough feeding.
......Yes, when you find some links that are extremely tight, widen them, I use a snap-ring plier like tool. When you squeeze the handle, the mouth of the tool opens.
......Take a look at the recoil spring......No need for the strong recoil spring you use for live fire, get another, and shorten that recoil spring a coil at a time, until she cycles peoperly. You have gone thru everything else, look at the power of the recoil spring, and reduce some of that crushing power....Just another suggestion... :cross:
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.

User avatar
Zamex
Stabsgefreiter
Stabsgefreiter
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:47 am
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: Slovakia
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Zamex » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:41 am

What do you mean by "not linked"? I have to have them in belt, dont I?
These broken cases appear already at the beginning, not only during the fire cycle. Last I have tested it, the first did break as pictured, then tried again and it did not even manage to push the case out of belt (stayed stuck with its back widest part in link). Then next attempt - again it stopped right away on the first one broken. Then next attempt - cca. 10 round dissapeared in half a second until again it stopped again on broken case. :(
My other friends who have also M53s have no modification in the recoil spring or anything on the gun, just the two-part barrel as I do. I dont want to cut the spring, I was told by local armorer that it will not work, and it is not reversible modification.
I am still looking for the cause of the broken case problem.... maybe I will try to widen some links in one belt, and maybe also lift a little bit those pointy back parts of links that fit into case groove?

User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:23 am

Place two blanks on feed tray & close lid; Charge & fire; First rd. fires then cycles onto the second rd;..If that works, you can eliminate belts as problem. (but still spread the ones with a death grip)
...........Get another recoil spring, & experiment with it.........(don't use the one that is for live fire)
Both my sa & fa 34/42s have shortened recoil springs for blanks;.......You do not need the full force of the full recoil spring for blanks....(Folke's book, 'The MG-34.42', talks about the difference in recoil springs when it comes to blanks.)
...........You have done everything else, it might be worth the try.
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.

User avatar
Zamex
Stabsgefreiter
Stabsgefreiter
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:47 am
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: Slovakia
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Zamex » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:10 pm

I see.. I can try that! Thanks!

Blanksguy
General
General
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:33 am
Location: Bay City, Michigan

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Blanksguy » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:15 pm

Zamex,
The plastic .308 Blanks in your photo look like they are going into the barrel's chamber....but appear to be showing signs that the chamber has the front-half of a cartridge-case left in the chamber from an old/fired live-round cartridge-case.

Next.......when using .308 (7.62x51mm NATO) ammo.......you should be using the post-war belts for 7.62x51mm. These do have a slightly larger inner-diameter and do not hold the cases as hard as the war-time 8x57mm. Yes......people will tell you that you can use either.....but there is a slight difference with inner-diameter. The 7.62x51mm belts have a short/curved attachment to link the belts together....... vs. the small square-tab on the war-time 8x57mm belts.
Note.....even the post-war 8x57mm belts come with a small square-tab to connect the sections of belts.

The test that "junglewalk" suggested is a good "tell" if your feed-system and/or chamber has an "issue". Try it and let us know what happens.
Regards, RichardS
US Army, Retired.

User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:01 pm

In my fa MG-42, I am using one of 'Blanksguy's' 2-piece 308 blank barrels..> It works magnificiently with all military 308 blanks from all the brass Austrian 308 blanks, US-GI bottle neck & crimped 308 blanks, to the German green & black plastic 308 blanks.
....All I do is changed the threaded plug in the barrel for the different blanks......> (My special recoil spring is trimmed back for all these blanks, not needing the power of a full recoil spring.)
........
....In my fa MG-34, I am using one of 'Blanksguy's' 2-piece 308 blank barrels............for shooting 8mm blanks, I use the German WWII 2-piece blank barrel.........(again, I use a shortened recoil spring for blank firing only)
........
I think all of us have experimented with so much of this stuff, until we finally get it to work, but Zamex, you will find the right combination that will work. :cross:
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.

User avatar
Zamex
Stabsgefreiter
Stabsgefreiter
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:47 am
Anti-spam: Mg42
Location: Slovakia
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Zamex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:38 am

OK, so I have tested this morning my MG again. I have used the 7,62x51 belt (grey colored, curved attachment link), it broke again right the first round. So it is not affected by any previous case which could be just travelling away while new one being loaded.
I tested it also without the belt as junglewalk suggested. But this has troubles hitting into the chamber and the case ends somewhere on side and deformed. This would not work.

What I have also tested is that I have removed the striker, loaded the NATO belt and tested manually one by one around half the belt. Not a single problem occured. I reloaded the belt again and then tested real firing as mentioned before, and already the first one was broken :(

I would like to test the shortened recoil spring but I have no place to buy a spare one around quickly. Would it work if I try to tie together a piece of the spring? I dont know if it is really possible, it just came to my mind.

On top, case that came through the process in and out, not fired, only a minor scratches on side of the metal part; on bottom - broken case, with a significant deep scratches on both side of the case bottom:
Image

User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:37 am

Zamex;....Don't cut away coils of your recoil spring, until you get one for the purpose of use with blanks. Once cut, it won't work piecing together.
.........Right from the beginning, your trial of laying a blank on the feed-tray slot, & trying to fire/cycle it without the belt, and failing, is a big red flag, & indication of something terribly wrong right there! No need to even try with belts...........The cycle action is so violent, that the slightest mis-alignment & unforgiving plastic blank we are using, can cause this malfunction.
........Slowing a bit & taking away some of the extreme pressure of a full size recoil spring while using these blanks, just may be a solution. (cycling during live fire is not a problem, as you have said)....Wish we could all go to the range and put our heads together on your gun.)
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.

blckwlfny
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:09 pm
Location: New York

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby blckwlfny » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:42 pm

[Look below
Last edited by blckwlfny on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blckwlfny
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:09 pm
Location: New York

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby blckwlfny » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:03 pm

Zamex wrote:Hi, I would like to ask you guys for an opinion. I have a M53 with two-parts barrel and I need to fire those grey plastic blanks. I am struggling with it for three years. Now I have a new barrel, with smooth chamber front so it is not chopping ammo on entrance. But still it does not fire, or very seldom. My gun is crushing the ammo - the metal end is facing down and it stops there. Also from on both sides of the ammo there is a strong cut on the metal back part. I dont know if it is related to the broken cartridge, I guess not. It seems as if the bottom part of the case is pushed forward by the bolt but something is slowing it down on the top part? The only thing I can think of is the belt, but I really dont know. I use yugo and german postwar black 8mm belts. Any help really appreciated, I am more than desperate after all the years and money I put into.

Image
Image
Image



I think I can help. Ive been where you are. I know how frustrating it is to to have a $3k paperweight. I will do everything I can to help you get that thing going.
One of the frustrating things about the '42 is that there is that the tolerances are so loose, that it may work in one instance but not the next. My gun was the biggest PIA in creation. but since I took care of the problems, I got it to work GREAT on the green plastic blanks.... and with the right orifice, they are pretty damned loud
So here's the first question of many that will help me help you.:
I was a little unclear as to whether the crushed blanks had been fired or not
- If they do come out like that after firing, the problem is most probably short cycling and a failure to eject
- If this is the case, let me know and we'll go on to the next step. if not, we have to take a different tack
Thanks
John

Blanksguy
General
General
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:33 am
Location: Bay City, Michigan

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Blanksguy » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:00 pm

Zamex/blckwlfny,
Zamex has photographic-skills....he could post clear-close photos of the bolt-face, and inside the top-cover....maybe the inside of the chamber or at least the barrel-markings. Something is causing the scratches on the Blanks, and the inability to chamber/fire from the belt.

Again, with his clear photos of the plastic-blanks.....they show uniform scratches around the case just below the "neck" area............what do you think caused them (?)...........not the belt..........and if it was a rough chamber-entrance the scratches would be more to one side/area as the chamber entrance is of a larger diameter.

If the pressure-plate in the top-cover was not of the correct angle, might make the chamber-direction at an incorrect angle. There are several other things we need more information on at this point.......as this is an old-post, did he correct everything by this time....is it still giving him challanges (?).

Clear photos and a good discriptions of the challanges from the beginning will help......(I believe that his gun is an MG42/M53-version, and not an SA42) ....did the gun fire live ammo in 8x57mm before he Blank-Adapted it.....what did he use to Blank-Adapt his gun (?).......and at this point, clear photos of the "jams" as they are in the gun helps, but we need more information and/or photos to help him.

To be clear.....is this an 8x57mm chambered-barrel-assembly or 7.62x51mm/.308 barrel-assembly (?)...or is there a separated case-front inside the chamber (?)....or rough-chamber-front (?).........More than likely, this may be cause those scratches on the plastic blanks if he doesn't have the correct barrel-assembly.
The cuts on the case-rims look more like a cut from a broken-extractor....and why I requested a photo of the bolt-face.

Regards, RichardS in MI.
US Army, Retired
Blanksguy2001@charter.net

blckwlfny
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:09 pm
Location: New York

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby blckwlfny » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:39 am

Blanksguy,
Good point on the extractor let's see what the pics yield

Blanksguy
General
General
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:33 am
Location: Bay City, Michigan

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Blanksguy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:30 am

blckwlfny,
I believe that Zamex has something going on in his current barrel's chamber when you look at the side-view of his chambered-blanks, and then a feed-angle-challange.

I could be wrong, but it appears that the plastic-cartridges are showing signs of either being forced into a chamber that has a separated-case or very-rough-front......or that he is trying to force 7.62x51mm Blanks into a chamber of an 8x58mm barrel-assembly. (NOTE: I have not tried this...but plastic-blanks are thinner than brass, and you can bend them....so chambering .308 in an 8x57mm chamber may account for this due to only slight changes in diameter in the cases area with scratches.).

As the plastic-cased-blanks are fed....something is slowing them down, and this could account for the uniform-scratches...."and" account for the "cut" rims at the base of the shell-cases as they are slowed down. If you look at this to with what Zamex was saying about the ability to sometimes chamber (but not fire) when hand-loading each blank.....think about how "plastic" can bend/reform...and then spring-back. Also note that "IF" plastic-cased-blanks could be re-formed without springing-back to origoinal shape/size......then the Blank-Makers making Blanks for reenactors would be using them for making Blanks such as for the MP44-series assault-rifles........correct (?).
What could be going on with Zamex's M53 is that the Plastic-Cased-Blanks will sometimes chamber.....but are slowed down (incorrect feed angle and/or light primer-hit without firing.).

We don't even know if Zamex's M53 has a worn recoil-spring (?)......bent barrel-stop inside receiver or messed-up key-ways for barrel-bearing at the front causing a set-back barrel-condition to begin with for shell-loading-angle (?).....or a bent pressure-plate or missing pressure-plate-spring in the top-cover (?)........even the bent front of a feed-tray could cause pressure-plate-challanges if we're not looking at all parts in his M53 (MG42). More clear photos and better discription are needed on what is going on with his M53 (MG42).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
US Army, Retired
Blanksguy2001@charter.net

Mikesal
Stabsunteroffizier
Stabsunteroffizier
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:59 pm

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Mikesal » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:00 pm

I'd like to breath some life back into this discussion. A friend has a 42 which runs live ammot like a dream (both 308 & 8mm), but is struggling these days with blanks. The damage to the cartridges is similar to those shown above (but he is using brass ammo). He has been thinking it's a barrel issue (he has 2 pc barrels from 2 different vendors), and I am machining a rebuild of one of them that is worn out (the stub broke off after many years of use), but I think it is a feed issue.

If we think about how the round travels to the chamber, the only way the damage is occurring is if the butt of the round isn't engaged with the bolt head and is allowed to "fall" out of alignment....which means the round gets bent / damaged as the bolt tries to close.

Am I on the right track?
Mike Sal (Bob, this is the gun I wrote to you about last week)

anjongni
Oberstleutnant
Oberstleutnant
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:31 am
Anti-spam: Mg42

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby anjongni » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:59 am

Photo from RTG. This might be too much spring for the plastic blanks.
mgg-1753_1074_detail.jpg
mgg-1753_1074_detail.jpg (6.12 KiB) Viewed 2817 times
As you look at the MG42 bolt, you notice that the round is nudged into the chamber by the nose of the extractor. The round then bottoms out in the chamber at which time the extractor must "pop" over the rim of the cartridge to allow the rollers to lock.
The plastic blanks are bending from the impact and force of contact with the extractor.
Try this: Remove the extractor from the bolt and chamber and fire a single round. It should look great.
Consider making a "weaker", lighter spring for the extractor. I doubt that this would cause any problems pulling the slippery blank cases from the chamber, and might resolve your problem. Good luck....Phil

Mikesal
Stabsunteroffizier
Stabsunteroffizier
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:59 pm

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby Mikesal » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:08 am

What is the best arrangement for the pressure plate (or "guide finger")? I've heard in the past that there's a difference between 8mm style & 308 style, but don't know the details (if true). Could this be a contributor to the bad feed we're having with the brass 308 blanks?
thanks,
Mike S

anjongni
Oberstleutnant
Oberstleutnant
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:31 am
Anti-spam: Mg42

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby anjongni » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:29 pm

http://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/MG3-B ... 7p2626.htm
mgg-1840b_816_general.jpg
mgg-1840b_816_general.jpg (13.52 KiB) Viewed 2803 times

This set-up here from RTG is for "plastic and wooden bullets".
Maybe it would reliably fire the plastic blanks....Phil

User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:42 pm

Yah, Mike,
...as you know , I am a big one on cutting the recoil spring down, when setting the gun up for firing Blanks.
..........and I do this on both the 34 & 42, FA and when I had both in SA form.
...Folk in his big book on the 34 & 42, even mentions that the unit waffen-meister had to be careful , not to mix the recoil springs for blank firing, and live fire.....Whether it was a cut back, or special weaker recoil spring, it does'nt say...So, I cut them back, one coil a a time, until the guns cycled completely & smoothly.
.........
..........The full power, of the full size recoil spring is not needed for shooting blanks....The powerful recoil spring just may be so strong & fast, that it may be crushing these blanks.
............It is worth looking into .
....(Next week, I'll be sitting on Normandy beach with my 42, with cut-back recoil spring, just running thru blanks like water , on the GIs.)...(I just don't need the full power of the whole recoil spring, for blanks)
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.

User avatar
JBaum
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: Lisbon, Ohio
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby JBaum » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:58 pm

junglewalk wrote:....(Next week, I'll be sitting on Normandy beach with my 42, with cut-back recoil spring, just running thru blanks like water , on the GIs.)...


Are you going to the D-Day reenactment at Conneaut, Ohio? I'll be there selling manuals Aug. 19-20.
John@German<remove this>Manuals.com

http://www.GermanManuals.com

User avatar
junglewalk
Stabshauptmann
Stabshauptmann
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: by Ft.Knox, Ky. & KCR
Contact:

Re: blank adapting the mg42/m53/mg1-3

Postby junglewalk » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:20 am

Yes John,...I want to go there at least once, before I am too old to do it...Ha!...See you there.
Beautiful women are like well built machineguns: Some should just be looked at, and left alone, while others were built to get hot.


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Blank Adapting”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron