Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by sbl11 »

The following photographs are of type 98's from an unnamed source in Australia. Because these are not official photographs, I will honor the wishes of the parent organization and leave them anonymous.

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While it is hard to read the markings due to the fact that they were defaced, the gun sports the standard type 98 markings with a serial number of 510 and a date of 17.4. This is the first Japanese gun that I have seen defaced in such a manner. Typically the mums would be scrubbed, but this gun never having a mum in my opinion should never have been defaced. The reasoning why this was done is unknown. Maybe someone was being extra careful not to step on any toes. At any rate, this does prove to be a surrendered type 98.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by sbl11 »

Lastly, coming out of Australia, I see no reason why or how the wooden stock could have been replaced with this bakelite stock. Gun laws in Australia are very strict, and machine guns are banned from private ownership. The great shooting populace that the United States has had simply did not exist in Australia to render any mass importation of gun parts, much less machine gun parts, to supply users with a means to replace damaged pieces. I believe we are looking at a gun that has been kept locked away by an official agency since its surrender.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Here is another from the unnamed Australian organization.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by IMBLITZVT »

sbl11 wrote:Lastly, coming out of Australia, I see no reason why or how the wooden stock could have been replaced with this bakelite stock. Gun laws in Australia are very strict, and machine guns are banned from private ownership. The great shooting populace that the United States has had simply did not exist in Australia to render any mass importation of gun parts, much less machine gun parts, to supply users with a means to replace damaged pieces. I believe we are looking at a gun that has been kept locked away by an official agency since its surrender.
Australian gun laws probably have not always been so bad. Parts travel the world. I know some Maxim parts from my small little private parts list have ended up in that area. If the gun had a broken off wood cover and it needed replacement, its far from an out of this world idea that a replacement could have been bought and shipped in. Gun parts end up all over the world! You would not expect to find 5000 MP44s in Syria but they just did! This would be called a lead but far from proof! From the pictures the cover looks to be in a lot better shape then the rest of the gun... Why not see if you can get it taken off and look for proof marks. Just like the cover on your gun that you thought might be original, when proof was found...
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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It seems to me, quite obvious, that much assistance was provided by the Germans to help in production of these weapons. As said earlier by another individual, "alot goes into the production of these weapons, much more than transporting machines and plugging them in". So, the question does not disqualify a German made part from being original to these contract guns. In fact, due to the large number of these guns world wide that have bakelite stocks, I would say that there is very little chance of these all being replacement parts. Looking at the old photographs also says something to the probability of this idea being correct.

As far as Australian law is concerned, speaking with my contact on the issue has led me to believe that there have always been restrictions on the ownership of machine guns. So, I would say that indeed the possibility of this piece being changed out is very low.

And if the bakelite looks in better shape, perhaps that's because it can't corrode and lose its finish...or because it also was not defaced purposefully.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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I still believe that the bakelite on my own gun is original, so in finding German maker's marks on a German contract gun...I did not worry.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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its far from an out of this world idea that a replacement could have been bought and shipped in
Do you mean from the Germans in World War Two? :lol:


If not, you don't find it odd the amount of bakelite covers found on these guns? Sure seems like alot of those wooden covers would have broken off?!!! [diz]

Funny thing is that most wooden covers I have seen look in pretty good shape! As well as those darn wooden grips on every gun. Any number of things could have happened to any number of guns in an infinite number of ways....however, my point is that it seems all too common that these things turn up......and in old photos too!

Lets not forget that we all know that the Japanese did have bakelite..and bakelite covers. Historic photos of downed airplanes prove that!

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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Getting back to old talking, yes we agree the japs got some MG15s direct from German so they are almost for sure bakelite covers in Jap inventory. Did they get extra shipped, I think not likely but possible. Did the Japs make their own Bakelite covers? I have seen no proof of that. Without looking into these covers you find more to see a difference between them and German made covers, you could post 100 pictures and it would not be proof... Just because you see it often means little.

I see Chinese Maxim parts on German guns all the time. The Chinese did not mark their parts. The German did mostly but not 100%. So can I say for sure that its a Chinese replacement... no but we know it is by how its made and the lack of markings. If you can show something like this then you have something, if not they will always be assume to be replacement parts.

Do remember that those MG15s and Jap version brought into the US was mostly illegal... laws never stopped much!

My guess why most of the wood covers are nice is because they did not take much abuse before breaking. Once they broke in combat, they were tossed! So they are either nice, never damaged, or gone.

So you want us to believe the japs were making every part on these guns except the bakelite covers and used German imported covers on the final production guns? That they are factory original not just replacements either during the war from damaged MG15s or post war replacements? Not buying that one... is that the current theory?
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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I see Chinese Maxim parts on German guns all the time. The Chinese did not mark their parts. The German did mostly but not 100%. So can I say for sure that its a Chinese replacement... no but we know it is by how its made and the lack of markings. If you can show something like this then you have something, if not they will always be assume to be replacement parts.
I believe that I did find a cover that was very different without markings, however it was blown off as an ersatz piece.

If the covers were in the inventory, then no bakelite cover found on a Japanese gun can be considered not original based simply on the fact that it is german bakelite. They had German bakelite. They had Japanese bakelite. This is common knowledge.
So you want us to believe the japs were making every part on these guns except the bakelite covers and used German imported covers on the final production guns? That they are factory original not just replacements either during the war from damaged MG15s or post war replacements? Not buying that one... is that the current theory?

I merely suggest that the Japanese would use materials available to aid in the production of these guns. I do not on any scale believe that mass importation of a certain piece was practiced. I just would like to disqualify the notion that because it is a German part on a Japanese gun that it MUST be post war. That does not seem to be logical given the circumstances found in the small scale production of these weapons beginning in 1942 and ending in 1945. With 3 years of production, only 4,000+ type 98's seems very small scale, considering German production numbers within the same time frame of 3 years.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by TactAdv »

"Hitler!" ;-)
Vieles ist bekannt, dass ist nicht offenbart.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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"I believe that I did find a cover that .....blown off as an ersatz piece."

I am not sure what that means?

"If the covers were in the inventory, then...... They had Japanese bakelite. This is common knowledge."

Well they had the bakelite covers that came on the MG15s.This is not inventory of covers but of MG15s. I have seen no proof that they shipped extra. So any cover taked from a damaged MG15 would not be considered an original part on a Jap gun. It would be considered a replacement part either by the Japs or someone post war. Just because the Japs made Bakelite does not mean they made bakelite cover right?

I merely suggest that the Japanese would use materials ava.... I just would like to disqualify the notion that because it is a German part on a Japanese gun that it MUST be post war. That does ...German production numbers within the same time frame of 3 years.

Yes sure they would use materials available but we have yet to see a Jap made cover. Just because they had the material does not mean they used it. I think most would agree that its possible that the Japs could have taken German bakelite cover of MG15s they received and used them on Jap guns. So yes they could be War time replacement covers, I agree, but considering the amount of MG15s they received, most likely case on most guns is that they were post war replacement covers.

However the bottom line is that collectors are still going to consider these bakelite cover to be replacement parts not correct on Jap guns. Just because a few may have been put on by some Jap during the war is not going to mean much. Unless you can find a Jap made bakelite cover, I think you will not be able to change many minds on the subject. People are still going to look at the probability and its much more likely to be a post war replacement...
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by sbl11 »

Hitler!!!!!
haha

Well, the cover I mention was photographed and posted previously. It came off the green painted type 98. It is unmarked in any way and has a red insert that was left unattached by the resin pins. That is the one that was blown off as an ersatz piece.

What it all boils down to is the fact that the Japanese had bakelite twofold(both imported and from within) and that is was used on their weapons. And with a great deal of examples showing up utilizing it, the probability of its origin relates to the gun during the war. Sure some COULD be replacements, but the fact of the matter is that it was used as seen in the majority of the photographs and blueprints.

I think that too many have shown up today to simply be ignored. I also think that too many historic photos have arisen with type 98's having the covers to merely write them off as mg-15s. THAT WOULD MEAN THAT WE DID AN EXCELLENT JOB FINDING A LARGE PORTION OF THE GERMAN GUNS. Statistically speaking, that just doesn't make sense based on shear numbers of each fielded. The percentage of assumed"German" guns is very close to 50% of the historic photos I have found. That I believe is just too much to fit in the collection of photos statistically speaking.


57/4500 = 50%? nah!!!!!
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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here is an example of a transitional "Navy" type 1. The Yokosuka Anchor is not present on this model, but the "YO" symbol(backwards Capital E) still is. This seems to show a transition occurring in the later part of 1944. You will also note a changing of the "YO"to the "NA" character within this same year, and a restarting of serial numbers accompanying that change.

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also of some interest, the arrow changes as well.
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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I should have posted this with SN4429:
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The markings are not what I meant by transitional. The whole gun is of the Type 1 Army style, yet with navy type markings(minus anchor).
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Here are photos of another type 98 from an unnamed source in Australia. It is of a late type 98 made in February 1944, one month after my gun. It has very similar features, including YET ANOTHER bakelite rear, and a plain block style pistol grip.


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Here is my gun for comparison.

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Good Day!
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by IMBLITZVT »

Seth, you really need to get these guys to start taking a detailed look at these covers if you really want to prove anything. Bakelite never turns out the same... If the Japs were making these you will be able to tell some type of difference between the German Covers and these "possible Jap" made covers. You can show us pictures until this thread is 100 pages long... don't mean much.

Show me some detailed pictures... difference in markings, mold lines, colors, dimensions.... then maybe you can start to prove something!

I just hate to see you getting all this info from all over the world and not really getting anything but some circumstantial evidence that can not prove anything. These could all be just like your gun... you think its Jap to you get it off and find out that its German! This of this as a Court case... prove it to us!
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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I posted this once before! It is the rear inner ring of a bakelite cover found on the "green" type 98 at NH&HC D.C. Naval Yards. That piece is designed to tightly fit the bakelite shell to the metal under-structure of the pistol grip. It is typically held in place by 3 resin pins. This cover lacked the pins, leaving this piece free floating and removable. Its color is also of interest. It is entirely red, and shows no sign of a cotton/wood pulp/paper additive like normal bakelite.

It is not what i would describe as normal!

And on top of that, it lacked any German markings.

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please ignore the "white out" i wanted to cover up someones information I unknowingly photographed


Again, I am posting this ony partially to make a point, but also as a collection of research. A dump file if you will.


My belief is still strong that even if German marking were found on every bakelite cover installed on these unknown type 98's( those guns not intended for shooting and withheld in museums that have no record of them ever being project guns needing parts) that they would still be original to the manufacture of the Japanese weapons. The reluctance of the German Military in releasing any information on new weapons to the Japanese until late war fits the notion that the trade of mundane or less essential war materials, which is actually documented, from Germany to Japan during the Mid War period makes all too logical the delivery of parts for weapons already considered outdated in the German military.

Photos of old and new suggest that!


I only hope that we can turn up a Japanese drum loader, to load all those millions of 8mm rounds sent to Japan for use in these drummed weapons.

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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Thats a picture of one odd cover... but it does little to prove Jap production. If the Japs did produce their own Bakelite covers, you need to show this with several guns to show that is more then just one odd ball. We need to see different production details as there surely were some as there are in the metal type parts. Now if every Jap gun with a cover had this mod.... then we are getting somewhere.

Unless you turn up paperwork proving the Germans sent covers (not already on MG15s) to help with production and the Japs used these in production, history will always view these are replacements as it can not be determined when they were added. Its not normal for a German part to be on a Jap made gun. So unless you can prove otherwise, no matter how many are like that now, its always going to be seen as replacements and most likely post WWII...

Have you started tracking serial numbers with Bakelite covers? If the Jap did get some from the Germans, its likely they would be on the early guns and not mixed with wood covers... They would have likely used them all and then moved to wood covers. Its not likely they used some here and some there... If you can find production series that all have bakelite covers, that will tell something. If they are spaced all over production, it tells you that they were likely replacements...
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

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Japanese Bakelite looks very similar to German Bakelite!

-Seth
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Re: Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

Post by DDayDog »

Hi guys - don't mean to thread jack, but I've got a friend I know whose got an old DEWAT Japanese MG15 with a plug welded in the barrel and all the parts but the drum magazine and anti-aircraft sights he wants to sell me. The wooden action has a crack in it from the trigger guard area to the back of the weapon and the grips are cracked and probably toast. He claims no real wear on the internals and no rust or pitting. He claims the flash suppressor? and barrel shroud are in excellent condition. I'm guessing 7.7 Jap is the caliber. The barrel plug prevents him from seeing down into it, so I don't know the condition of the barrel, but a lot of the weapon was packed in cosmoline and appears hardly used. Both U.S. and Japanese writing on it, apparently and SN is 3***. I was thinking of buying it, cleaning it up, and putting it up for sale as a parts kit. Any idea of a fair price to offer for it? I know pics help, but I don't have pics - yet - and was just curious what you might think?

Thanks !! :)

Dog
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