Japanese Type 1 (Type 98/MG-15 clone) reactivated

[sbl11]

Phil,
That's a whole 'nother debate! Yet, very likely to give some great detail into those guns sold to Japan. You raise a very good question about commercial guns being produced during a war in a large military grounded weapons factory. It is to my knowledge that ST-61 stamped on these guns is still not fully understood. I think that given the makers marks, that these were indeed intended for commercial sale, or lease to Germany's allies. Otherwise there would be no reason to mark the guns any differently than mg-15. However, as the war progressed, i find it very likely that these weapons, much like the 1941 Portuguese K98 contract rifles, never made it to the intended buyer. Instead, use was found within the German military.

That is all speculation based off commonality in other contracts that never fully went through, eg. those k98's.

-Seth

[TactAdv]

Okay.......seems we've rounded a corner here and are taking this topic back to the ST-61 thread. Not to go undo that whole thread, but here are some salient points to consider with your question, Phil, much of which has already been put out there in the ST-61 discussion.

There are some "solid" clarifications that need to be corrected with your post- One, ****ALL*** ST-61 marked receivers were made as water-cooled guns. There were never any aircraft/air-cooled "ST-61" marked guns built as-such, at least none of the existing provenance has ever shown that to be true. So, an "ST-61" is and always was a water-cooled gun variant. Now, the fact that you have a DEMIL-ed parts set with that receiver is of no account as once all the ST-61 guns reached the UK in the late 90's they were made up later as to whatever the downstream market would bear- A/C guns as DEACT's, A/C guns imported here as DEMIL-ed parts sets, water-cooled display guns, you name it.....wasn't done with any particular care toward historical accuracy as to keeping "correct" parts together anymore......

Once again, for the guns that made it over here via Christian Cranmer's efforts, Bob Naess may want to chime in as he had a special connection to them once they were in Bond over here.....he was the guy who cut them up here. Maybe he will wish to say something more.......

As for Rheinmetall-Borsig AG in general, one must remember that during this time Rheinmetall was most certainly totally controlled, and largely personally OWNED, by Hemann Göring through his personal company "Reichswerke Hermann Göring" which became the controlling interest in the company throughout the War years. These kinds of things were rampant throughout the Reich as highly-placed senior NAZI officials padded their incomes by all manner of theft, graft, and outright seizure of industrial assets. Göring was a very visible proponent of this conduct and it is a long established fact that he diverted a multitude of wartime production capacity to personal deals made on the side, almost certainly without the knowledge or permission of either Der Führer or OKW/OKL officials, after-all, he was a Reichsmarschall and nominally Number 2 in the outfit through much of this time......who was going to complain?? The ST-61 deal was almost certainly a private production matter, though whether this was conducted solely a the behest of Göring personally or by company officials acting on their own is likely never to be known. The key element of provenance with this gun is that the receivers bear no official German military proof or acceptance marks of ANY kind, and the markings that do exist...particularly the actual receiver makers marks are pure Rheinmetall commercial trademarks ('Herstellermarke').....all at a time when the NAZI were fully implementing the renowned "Fertigungskennzeichen" manufacturing ordnance production code system....there is no way such a long-established weapon system and prime contractor would escape the marking requirements. And.....just as obviously, such a long-established weapon system would never escape the required Military inspectors acceptance markings, ie, "(Heeres)waffenamt Inspektoren Marke" standard applied also to all Luftwaffe flieger-bordwaffen by decree. The ability to produce ANY military weapon during this time period minus all these required markings could ONLY have occurred with an exceptionally high level of concurrence by SOMEONE at the very top of the food chain.

Next....the whole issue of ANY "MG-15" being in production as complete guns by 1942 is troublesome and problematic when one realizes that the MG-15 as front line weapon system was well known to be operationally outdated and largely irrelevant by the end of the Battle of Britain- October 1940-as the LuftWaffe had long ago(by 1942) completely realized this and had utterly converted mountings of MG-15 emplacements on-board miltarily-relevant aircraft to the much more effective mountings of either MG-81/81Z, or MG-131 guns as appropriate. By 1942 it is almost certainly safe to say that no front-line combat aircraft were still mounting MG-15's, at least not any of those that had the possibility to have been converted over the more effective newer designs. Those second line machines where it was not possible to install 81/81Z or 131 guns (certain seaplanes in particular, which interestingly, were also kept mounting equally obsolescent MG-FF/M for the same reasons) flew on with their original MG-15 mountings until lost or destroyed. Short-story is quite simply that save for the very limited necessity to continue to keep producing some small amount of spare parts, actual full time production of the MG-15 gun was pretty well a thing of the past long before 1942. While I have seen MG-15 with '42 production dates, I cannot think that I have ever seen any pictured with even a '43 date, though that does not mean that they don't exist. Neither can I remember a DT-15 drum mag with a date beyond '43??? Point being that for Rheinmetall to make up a very small batch of non-std water-cooled guns with obscure, non-official markings for a private contract that late in the MG-15 game speaks volume of SOMEONE'S desire internally to make a quick profit off of existing production capacity going underutilized or even from existing stocks of spare parts.....just the kind of under the table deal you'd be doing if you were Reichsmarschall and just happened to own the factory, too.

There are many cold trails on the ST-61 story....the current best-reasoned belief is that they were delivered to Romania, or at least intended for delivery there.

-TomH

[anjongni]

Thanks Seth and Tom for the very reasonable explanations. No air-cooled MG15s were marked ST61. Nazi big shots were double-dipping at the trough. So the receiver on this aircraft weapon is a from what was originally a water-cooled gun? And anything that has been through the hands of IMA has certainly lost its provenance; if it's one of theirs, they could have built it up from various sources to market it. My only question would be, what would it gain anyone to pirate a receiver from a water-cooled set just to have something on the gun to torch? Import legal issue?
If I recall, years ago MG15 air-cooled parts sets were very cheap. Doesn't seem like it would be worth it. I've never seen an MG15 really close-up, but this one looked pretty original. Obviously couldn't be so.....Phil

[bmg17a1]

Looking at the T61 offered on auction, I did not have that gun in the lot that I torched at Century Arms, which is evident to me by which parts that are torch cut and by the torch technique used. The MG15s that I handled and torch cut had the inner receiver removed and destroyed, but the outer shell was not cut, nor was any part of the rear of the shroud assembly.
From the patterns of the torch cuts on that gun, I believe that it was assembled as an air cooled gun prior to being cut up, but of course, the is no way to tell when the MG15 shroud was assembled to the receiver. It is entirely possible that it had been fitted with the air cooled shroud many years ago, even possibly as an active military use or home defense gun. Just no way of knowing....... Conversion can be done in a few minutes with correct parts at hand.
There is no way to know when, from whom and where this gun entered the US. Just as possible it was brought to England as a T61 by IMIA or Firepower International, outfitted with shroud and then exported to US as an Mg15 by some outfit or person and was torched to meet US import requirements.

Bob Naess

[sbl11]

Was the ST-61 designation done because of the adaption to a water jacket, or because it was intended for export? I tend to lean towards the later as the proofs and makers marks seem to hint commercial export. What is the earliest ST-61 recorded?

-seth

[moparman68]

I own the naval type 1 parts kit on page 22, i figured maybe u guys would want a few pics. The gun is numbers matching and and in excellent shape besides the saw cut receiver, even came with the AA site!

[42rocker]

1st Welcome to the website and what a nice first post.

2nd Your post is interesting and nice photos, way to share.

Later 42rocker

[sbl11]

Thanks Moparman!

I hope that you found this discussion interesting, and perhaps found something out that maybe you did not know. If you have any input into this topic based off what you have researched, please by all means spill the beans. All this is theory based on a the few examples know to exist today. By no means is all, if any, of it the 100% correct history of these weapons. But, i think we are close on some issues.




-seth

[moparman68]

Thank you! Most of my knowledge of the type 98 and navy type 1 I have acquired from this forum. Lots of good info here! Only thing I have to go along with this gun is a neat story but with no written documents to prove that it's true. This parts kit was purchased at a estate sale of a navy ww2 veteran. His widow said he acquired it from a friend of his that worked at a government scrap yard in the pacific. The gun was salvaged from a destroyed Japanese plane before it was completely torn apart for scrap. I was planning on getting my class 3 someday and make a post sample out of it but plans have changed. It was completely original when I received it and looked to be uncleaned since it was pulled from a plane. The muzzle of the barrel jacket was still charred black and had a small amount of surface rust from the muzzle and part way down the jacket as if it was sticking out of the backside of a plane.

[sbl11]

Very interesting! One of only a few remaining examples of these rare guns! Its a shame that the government doesn't look at the statistics on gun violence in the U.S. and come to terms with the fact that no war trophy to date has been in a part of any crime, ever! Stinks that these pieces of history have for the most part been destroyed, or otherwise tamped with in attempts to render them not serviceable.

-Seth

[moparman68]

Yes it is sad to see these historical weapons destroyed, such a important part of history that cannot be forgotten. I know this probably not the place to ask but what would something like this be worth? I was hoping by now I would be able to build it up to its original operating condition but I still need to obtain my licence. I wanted to build a replica plane cockpit and have it set up but may have to wait for future funding!!

[sbl11]

You may be able to get as much as an IMA parts kit. I recommend that you use the german parts kits from ima if you do ever get your licence and rebuild it. Save those original parts!


-seth

[michaelangelo]

I bought a MG15 magazine recently. When It came in, it was not marked like a German MG15 magazine. It had an anchor, a funny shaped 'E", and a small rectangular box with some other markings on the inside. It was numbered 3336X. I am guessing it is Japanese. The leather strap was in two pieces and was a nice shade of arrange. The bluing is 98-99%. I collect German stuff. Is anyone interested?

Michaelangelo

[TactAdv]

Michaelangelo!!,
DIBS!!!
YES! I am interested. I have PLENTY of real DT-15 drums to swap. Just contact me through the site here, and we'll go.....

-TomH

[sbl11]

We Demand Pictures!!!!! HAHA!!!