Water Cooled MG-13s

[oakrodent]

Here is the scoop on the water cooled MG-15s. The aircraft MG-15s were sent to the newly formed French armies of the German occupied France to be rebuilt as water cooled MG-15s for ground use. After the French rebuild them, they were sent to Germany's allied, the Romanians. The Romanians used them in WW2. IMA bought them from the Romanians.

[42rocker]

Thanks for that info. I keep looking at them and thinking about buying one. Quick can we do a change back to when we used to have money.

Later 42rocker

[TactAdv]

Here is the scoop on the water cooled MG-15s. The aircraft MG-15s were sent to the newly formed French armies of the German occupied France to be rebuilt as water cooled MG-15s for ground use. After the French rebuild them, they were sent to Germany's allied, the Romanians. The Romanians used them in WW2. IMA bought them from the Romanians.

With respect, I (and many others) can make a vigorous defense against the notion that ANY water-cooled ST-61 (MG-15) was actually assembled from ANY re-manufactured aircraft gun already in existence. While elements of their story remain murky, there is inescapable evidence that these were newly manufactured guns, an in fact it is almost certain they were NOT made under the auspices or inspection protocols of the German military industrial complex extent at the time. There are simply too many definite, provable, discrepancies in the parts markings/lack of markings, and other tell-tale signs that these guns were a purely commercial venture, without even trying to figure out who or what organization ordered, or paid for them. There are numerous provable provenances of EVERY SINGLE former Luftwaffe surplus aircraft gun that was eventually either experimented with or actually issued as an approved model converted to ground use.....MG-17's, MG-81/81Z's, MG-151, you name it.....point being SOME element of provable documentation exists to support the notion that a particular weapon system was converted to ground use......and aside from the well known AIR-COOLED adaptations set for the MG-15, there exists NO document-able evidence that ANY Wartime German organization, authority, or command ever attempted to do the water-cooled conversion to the MG-15 guns held back by the Luftwaffe under the much documented 'Landkriegsordnung' edict that existed, from at LEAST 1940 on-ward.

And since, given the complexity in physical terms and contexts of converting the MG-15 to a water-cooled arrangement, makes that the absolute MOST industrially complex attempt at converting ANY of the known former aircraft guns to ground use, that it is simply unfathomable that given the fanatical German proclivity to document everything in excruciating detail that since a significant mechanical and physical alteration to what remained a (limited)standard-issue weapons system would go....simply, unbelievably, and utterly uniquely in the German wartime record....undocumented. No documentations, no written records, not even a period photograph exists of the period existence of these weapons. Not even the much, much, much more non-standard last-ditch small arms weapons programs went completely undocumented.....as is being asked to be believed here with this conversion of a VERY, VERY common and well known, well documented, and VERY visible weapons system.

And just for starters, there is NO, nadda, zilch, NOTHING extant in the German Wartime record of ANY weapon, or weapon system known as "ST-61", the actual marking on the receiver on ALL the known water-cooled guns ever discovered. For one thing, the "ST-61" nomenclature does not fit ANY known naming convention ever used by the German military, it simply does not support any of the well documented naming conventions that are well known and well organized. Next, NO wartime German military accepted MG-15 ever was produced with the COMMERCIAL manufacturers markings that exist on ALL ST-61 water-cooled guns found to date; The Rheinmetall-Borsig commercial patent-logo was NEVER found on any MG-15 accepted or paid for by the German government, yet this very same commercial logo-patent appears quite prominently on all the very early commercial sales of MG-15 air-cooled guns sold abroad and ALSO all the ST-61 water-cooled guns made much later....this is NOT by accident.

This can go on and on.......I already wrote a much detailed post on this forum awhile back. There is simply far too much that simply does not add up to the VERY well documented and understood historical provenance of the German wartime industrial complex, or is provably able to be related to the ST-61 program as being anything other than, simply, an advantageous commercial opportunity that Rheinmetall-Borsig either was granted permission to undertake from the HWA, or even more likely lacking ALL document-able provenance of ANY governmental oversight, that they simply took an opportunistic gamble in the wake of the disintegrating German society at the time.

It may well be that the ST-61 program produced guns that were assembled in the St. Etienne Arsenal as has been proposed, or not, it is almost certain that they would have only assembled parts made by R-B, and likely from parts that were already in stock as the need for MG15 parts overall was clearly nearly over by late 1944 which is what most ST-61 receivers are date-marked.

The point is this.....ST-61's were NEVER a German wartime military accepted or controlled weapon, it simply would strain to the absolute limit all existing understanding of the extensively documented weapons programs to believe this was the ONLY item that was somehow........totally undocumented.

There are many, many, many more glaring discrepancies with the ST-61 guns that define placing their existence as anything other than a purely commercial venture, and one of highly dubious official permissions, but the basic point is well made here. The ST-61 water-cooled was a new-made gun, made purely as a commercial venture, and utterly devoid of any German wartime military acceptances or approvals, and it was always made from scratch as a water-cooled and was never converted from any existing air-cooled military accepted guns already in existence. To deny this is to simply not understand the comprehensive base of knowledge that exists regarding the very well known German military-industrial history.

-TomH

[Bil]

So-since they already had the machining for the mg15,but it was no longer suitable for aircraft,AND the efforts to use them as ground conversion aircooled was an attempt to use what they already had (why make more of something that wasn't really needed) the company used its tooling to make its own version of the gun,adapting it for water cooling. It was then sold to customers other than the German army. That is how I read Toms post,and it jives with any other research I have seen. It also seems that IMA DID bring them in from Roumania,so that would make sense also. The paper work between manufacturor and foreign army would have been much less extensive than the official German army paperwork. One question (Maybe 2) Where did the R_B factory end up ? Meaning by the end of 1944,the Russians had moved considerably west. Were these guns that were rushed to the defense of Roumania,or were they built post-war,like some of the Czech MG 34s? ( OK,more than 2) Roumania was over-run fairly quickly,with a lot of confusion and rapidly changing lines.It would be easy to not find paperwork,even photos of this time and area are not so easy to find,even in the archives. IMA remains silent on any details of this transaction. But it IS an interesting gun! ---bil

[oakrodent]

I am not revealing my sources, so if you believe me or not is up to you. I know I tend to believe it when it comes from the horses mouth.

[IMBLITZVT]

I am not revealing my sources, so if you believe me or not is up to you. I know I tend to believe it when it comes from the horses mouth.

Oh ok if you heard it from the horses mouth, then I will disregard all the overwhelming evidence thats says thats not the case and believe it without question. Plus this horse is probably IMA, a company well known for not even coming close to twisting the truth.

[oakrodent]

Don't be so hypocritical. First of all you have no idea of who I talked to. Why does it have to be somebody from I.M.A. ?? BTW what did IMA do to you. I have had good luck with them in the past. Anyways, here are a few more links for you guys to look at, and it was just Googled, I know that's tough for some of you to do.
http://www.dandbmilitaria.com/mg15st61- ... 6589-p.asp

Here are a few different topics from a Romanian Forum:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=515
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1475
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php ... 20&hl=st61

I know I have seen a pic of one being used by the Romanians during WW2, but I just don't have the time to look for it now.
So I digress, oh did you notice it didn't take me a page and 3+ paragraphs to make my point

"To deny this is to simply not understand the comprehensive base of knowledge that exists regarding the very well known German military-industrial history."

[IMBLITZVT]

"Don't be so hypocritical."

What is Hypocritical about what I said? I don't ask people to believe something that goes against good evidence just because I heard it from an unIdentified horse's mouth?

"First of all you have no idea of who I talked to. Why does it have to be somebody from I.M.A. ?? BTW what did IMA do to you."

You are correct I don't but since you will not tell us, whats the harm in guessing? IMA is known for twisting/making up the truth to sell an item. There are many examples in their Maxim items. Example being, their trench mounts, MG08 armor, captured Russian Maxim. These items were either not original or just flat out made up! If you need more details, I will add them. I have no real problem with IMA other than this. I order from them too.

"and it was just Googled, I know that's tough for some of you to do."

I think we have seen these. No need for the insult.

"I know I have seen a pic of one being used by the Romanians during WW2, but I just don't have the time to look for it now."

If you find it, please post it as I don't think anyone else has seen such a picture.

"So I digress, oh did you notice it didn't take me a page and 3+ paragraphs to make my point "

No you made your point very quick and up to now provide no evidence. No wonder it was so short.

I will let TactAdv and bil respond to the websites as he has been following more closely than I since I sold my ST kit.

If you can provide some evidence to help the discovery of the history of this gun, I think we would all like to hear it. But posting that you know something because you heard it from some secret source just is not going to cut it!

[sbl11]

Why is this thread titled "water cooled mg-13s"?

[Bil]

AHA! A question I can answer with certainty! It was mis-typed in the original,and even with my superior moderator abilities,I can't seem to figure out how to change it! ( I can provide documentation attesting to my ineptness in the computer field and many others) ---bil

[TactAdv]

A period photograph of its use during the war would not surprise me as I have never debated that they were all made @circa 1944, all I have tried to vigorously refute is the notion that they were other than a purely commercial venture.
-TomH

[amafrank]

Well I've got a few things to add.....
Tom, I've seen a couple MG15 aircraft guns that have the Rheinmetall commercial proof along with Luftwaffe acceptance proofs. Both were 1936 dated guns so no doubt they were commercial guns accepted by the military.
On the other hand I agree with the rest of your post.

I had a look at the links oakrodent posted and it looks to me like they were all started by the same guy and all used the same lack of evidence to back up a claim made by D&B militaria. The part showing the MG13 mag in the watercooled gun pretty much shows its all a crock as far as I can see. . . sure you can mod the mags to fit the gun but that doesn't mean it was ever done. That was an IMA joke.....

Frank

[sbl11]

What do the commercial Proofs look like?
-seth

[TactAdv]

What do the commercial Proofs look like?
-seth

(Frank, Yes, of course you are correct, my comment ran toward the notion of there not being any war time contracts that permitted the commercial markings)

Seth, all ST-61's I have yet seen bear the later Rheinmetall-Borsig commercial logo being used at that time (1942-44), which is the well recognized "twin circle" logo, as Rheinmetall had by then acquired the Borsig facility and added the name to the previous Rheinmetall triangle logo. Here's a couple reasonable images of one:



For the earlier, Pre-War type markings, here's a nice and pretty uncommon Heinrich-Krieghoff made one:


And here's a run-of-the-mill wartime made and accepted LuftWaffe one:


Interesting to see the pre-NAZI, Weimar Republic ('Weimarer Republik') markings on the H-K made one. Also, note the commercial proof house markings on all.

Notice also that the ST-61 markings conventions simply do not comport to the German Military/LuftWaffe stds, as shown by the lower gun, when ostensibly made in the same era. HWA/Luftwaffe requirements required that the serial number either be preceded by the prefix "Nr" for number("Nummer"), or NO prefix; the ST-61s use a very non-German-military prefix marking of "No.", which is not only non-compliant with the German MILITARY markings requirements, but is also completely wrong for the German LANGUAGE, and is more correct for a typical Romance language. A similar situation exists for the date markings. This whole thing smells highly of something Herr Speer would have arranged on the side to grease along his other questionable maneuverings......

-TomH

[TactAdv]

Just as another tid-bit thrown out for discussion here, trying to give more credence to the notion that the ST-61 design was a new made gun, rather than a "conversion" of existing MG15 A/C guns, consider this:

The ST-61 is virtually a new design, by itself, and cannot be considered really any form of "conversion" simply due to the extensive differences in the basic component parts count. Parts required to make the ST-61 a water-cooled gun are:

-New receiver(as evidenced by all new and non-std markings)
-new W/C BBL
-all new front end, including proprietary bi-pod and sights

....while seemingly a small new parts count, that actually leaves only the internals, drum carrier housing, and trigger housing group as common parts. In fact, all those common parts are also most likely to be the parts either still made or retained as spares for the MG15 A/C guns in use or inventory still. The greatest single mystery is why there was a new-made receiver used on the ST-61 guns, when there is absolutely zero difference between it and the A/C versions.....UNLESS one considers that EITHER the receiver being the controlled/serialed part in Military inventory was not available, or more likely, Rheinmetall simply used up existing spares and then quietly cranked out both new-made W/C barrels and new-made receivers marked as "ST-61" to complete the project as needed, and simultaneously sub-contracted (or were directed to use) the St Etienne Arsenal to have the complete front end water jacket assemblies made. Either way, once you consider the single over-riding fact that all the ST-61's have a new-made and newly marked RECEIVER, the notion of them being "converted" from existing air-cooled MG-15 AIRCRAFT guns goes right out the window....

-TomH

[oakrodent]

I have no excuse on the title. I had the MG-13 on my mind when I started the post.
Were they then sold threw France? The ST61 Transit Chest Inventory is written in French. The thought was they were converted by M.A.S. but as it was pointed out, the receivers, and barrels are new. Are the internals numbered to the receiver, or do they have the old MG-15 markings? I would check my parts kits, but I sold both the ST-61 and my MG-15 kits.

[sbl11]

I was just picking on you about the title:) I have caught myself doing the same thing! Do we know which countries were buying the commercial guns? Any pictures of earily commercial rheinmettal-borsig marked guns. Also, a bit off topic, any idea when the wooden rears were replaced by the bakelite ones?
-seth

[TactAdv]

Also....any idea when the wooden rears were replaced by the bakelite ones?
-seth

It seems to have been completed fully as a system wide industrial change sometime shortly before 'Unternehmen Seelöwe' ("Operation Sealion", the planned invasion of Great Britain). This plan included, importantly, the decimation of the British air resistance, hence becoming "The Battle of Britain" in the spring of 1940, the only part of 'Seelöwe' to have been enacted. The BoB was, effectively, the turning point in the LuftWaffe's recognition that RCMG's were past the point of material effectiveness in air-combat, hence by the summer of 1940 the MG-15 was decidedly on the outs so far as anything remotely resembling a front-line standard item as even before The BoB was over in the Fall of '40, MG81's/81Z's and even the planned MG-131 re-armaments were well underway. (BTW, the same fate met the 20mm MG-FFM at the same time, both armament designs remaining std only on second- and third-line aircraft, i.e, maritime patrol bombers, observation planes, etc.)

I have not seen a wooden cover on anything past 1939-dated receivers. Maybe Frank H. will chime in, too.

-TomH

[TactAdv]

Were they then sold threw France?

An interesting hypothesis! Using, presumably then, the Vichy Government to conduct foreign sales may have "hidden" the Rheinmetall-Borsig connection, as would documentation using the "ST-61" model design as both would entail a strong measure of "plausible deniability" for any presumed German/NAZI origins for the Roumaninan Government, then staring at a very angry Russian army approaching from the East. Discovering "French" weapons would be....explainable.

The ST61 Transit Chest Inventory is written in French.

Are you sure?? ALL I have seen were written in the period Roumanian language?? BTW, in period Roumanian we have, very interestingly, the statement "Sistemului Terenul".....meaning, literally, "Ground System", so notice the first letters in each Roumanian word there, "S" & "T", i.e., "ST-61". Seems plausible the model designation was proscribed by the Roumanians themselves. Someone (Frank H.?????) probably knows the other period LMG gun models in Roumanian service at the time....so is number "-61" a logical progression?

-TomH

(transit chest label below, in period Roumanian language)

[IMBLITZVT]

An interesting hypothesis! Using, presumably then, the Vichy Government to conduct foreign sales may have "hidden" the Rheinmetall-Borsig connection, as would documentation using the "ST-61" model design as both would entail a strong measure of "plausible deniability" for any presumed German/NAZI origins for the Roumaninan Government, then staring at a very angry Russian army approaching from the East. Discovering "French" weapons would be....explainable.

Hidden except for the manufacturers mark on the receiver?