My Semi Schwarzlose build

[oakrodent]

Here are a few pics of my Semi Schwarzlose. It is still a build in progress and I didn't put all the bells and whistles on it for the photo shoot.

[CaptMax]

Sweet! You know I would love to see how you mounted that AR15 FCG in there. I still can't figure it out from your pictures.
CaptMax

[oakrodent]

Here are some before and after pics. All ready to strip, polish, and send it out for bluing. After that a nice coat of paint, camouflage, and then assemble. More pics to follow ...........

[42rocker]

Wow... Another great build...

Hope to see more pics later

Later 42rocker

[dwmmg08]

Very cool, does it work? The title says semi, but there's welds in there like for a dummy gun?

cool! Please tell us more!

[oakrodent]

Well I am on the finial streach. I just have a little more adjusting to get it to run correctly. Just thought I would give some updated pics

[42rocker]

Wow cool finish.

Later 42rocker

[bmg17a1]

Since there was no followup about the question posed by dwmmg08 asking if the gun is a dummy, I have a question..... If the gun is semi, have you received an approval for your semi-auto design from ATF?
To date I haven't heard of a semi approval for the Schwarzlose', and there are a number of people who have asked me to build a semi version for them. If there is okne I woiuld like to know.
Being a longtime fan of these guns, I've owned at least two and often more live, registered examples and really enjoy shooting them. Although there are not a lot of kits left that have not been welded up into dummy guns, there is a small demand for a semi version among those hwo still own kits.

Interesting camo......

Bob Naess
Black River Militaria CII

[oakrodent]

The first post clearly shows some of the mods for the semi auto build. The sequence of the pics are just out of order. This was a display gun when I bought it, now it's a semi auto. No I didn't send it to the ATF. There is a huge amount of machining for the way I built it as a semi auto.

[Taurus454]

Sweet! Looks like alot of machining went into based on what I could tell from the first series of pics. Did you do all that machining yourself? If yes, you are an artist my friend!

Tom

[oakrodent]

Thanks, I try to clean up the receivers so you can't tell they have been re-welded. I try with the mill. I pretty much taught myself how to use it. I wish it was a better mill with metric dials. The dial measurements don't even work, so I have to measure and mark every cut instead of using the dials. ugggg. I have had to start over many times! The cammo was another interesting project. I had seen a WW1 battlefield pic of a destroyed MG with this same cammo pattern, but what colors? ? Since I started reenacting German Heer WW2 and also doing US WW1 color is everything, and seems like nobody knows the correct shade but will point out something they believe is incorrect. Well I have a friend who was even more annul, but he knows his colors, he is a modeler, not a reenactor. So now I ask him what colors he would use on a WW2 diorama. I get the colors he says and paint my gear accordingly. Model paint holds up quite well and I have never had to repaint. WW1 is another story, but I found a group on-line who do WW1dioramas. Lots of really interesting info. The paint is another story, they only use one brand and it's not that easy to find here in the states, Turns out the US distributor is just over the river in NJ. Problem solved and my MG is painted in the correct shades, plus this paint company has been in business since 1905. Can't wait to take it to the WW1 trenches at Newville, PA and see how bad that cammo sticks out!

[bmg17a1]

At the risk of appearing to interfere here, do you understand that your semi-auto MG made from an MG receiver needs to comply with ATF's semi-auto design criteria, and if it does not, it is legally an unregistered MG? Perhaps you are aware of this, or maybe not. MG receivers, when rewelded from kits and built into a new firearm are still under the purview of ATF because they have been restored to the status of a "firearm'. ATf views semi-MGs quite seriously as the semi-MG industry has increased significantly in the last ten years and, unfortunately, there is a lot of non-compliance with approval of semi-auto MG designs by ATf which will eventually result if further restrictions.
I bring this up because of the increasing issues with people who have both legitimate semi-MGs as well as registered MGs being harassed by range officers, complaints by private citizens who are scared of firearms, and other intersections where the police are called and then ATF shows up and asks a lot of hard questions with the ususal consequence of the semi-MG being confiscated and sent to Firearm's Tech at AFF to determine if it is an MG or not.
The more this happens, the more fuel ATF has to further regulate and restrict access to MG parts as well as tightening up the approval for semi-MGs, as well as for other tyeps of MG related firearms that are submitted for testing, and everybody loses. Over the last forty years I have watched the constant cinching of the restrictions, tighter and tighter, more restrictive import standards for MG parts, barrels, receivers, etc, less flexibility with ATF for variances in approval of new products and ideas, greater harassment by ATF of minor violations by FFL/SOTs, etc, etc. We all get hurt when somone gets caught outside the legal boundaries and ATF responds by creating new, more restrictive and destructive regulations that further reduce the ability of people to pursue their gun interests, especially with all MG related interest whether semi-auto MGs or NFA weapons. We are all regarded with hostility form many quarters and need to work at preserving what we currently are legally allowed to possess, which is becomiing more and more difficult.
I am sure you will do what you want, but I would seriously encourage you to submit your gun to ATF for approval of the semi-auto design, if for no other reason than, at the very least, to protect yourself from any potenatial legal hassles, and at best to partcipate in the semi-auto MG community, and the wider NFA community, with its best interests at heart.
Anyone involved with MGs is taking a calculated risk, which we all assess to different degrees, but we are all vicitmized by ATF for infractions of compliance.
So, please do the right thing.

Bob Naess
Black River Militaria CII

[oakrodent]

Thanks for the concern. I hope I didn't just fall off the turnip wagon. I have been doing this for awhile. I have made lots of mods to this receiver and it will take well over the 18hrs to convert back to auto, if it is even possible. There is no way in hell the original bolt set-up or trigger housing will ever fir on this MG again. On top of all the mods there are hardened denial blocks welded into the receiver. This receiver would have to be cut apart again, major sections cut out and replaced before it could be rebuilt as a post sample. On all my builds I go way overboard on modifying them to prevent the original parts from ever fitting in them and working. That is why when I do a bolt, I will usually do more then one so I have a spare. There is no way I would want to figure out how I did the first one. By getting a ATF approval, it would be only good for me, and nobody else. It is up to the individual agent to approve each request. So if mine was ok'd it would be no guarantee yours would be. Trust me, I don't want any problems with the ATF, and don't ever want to risk the hobby I enjoy. I will be posting some very clear pics of my semi auto mods I did on another forum and answer any questions about them there. You are more then welcome to copy what I did and turn your in to the ATF.

[bmg17a1]

oakrodent writes:

>By getting a ATF approval, it would be only good for me, and nobody else. It is up to the individual agent to approve each request. So if mine was ok'd it would be no guarantee yours would be.<

This is not correct. Approvals for various designs over many years for NFA as well as semi-MGs are currently regarded as public domain and as industry standard and there are lots of exmaples of this. I have a number of approvals from ATF requested during the 1990s which have also been done by others. This is not an issue. And I would add, if someoen else built the design to your specs and ATF did not approve it it would be an MG.

Well, at least you understand the rules, so good luck.

Posted a pic of osme of my Schwarzlose......

Bob Naess

[bmg17a1]

A couple more observatiions, since I reread oakrodents post, and there are some incorrect assumptions. Perhaps this will help provide some more perspective.

>I have made lots of mods to this receiver and it will take well over the 18hrs to convert back to auto,...<

This is a misconception very common with semi-MG builders who have no experience with or about ATFs requirements and methods for determining if a weapon is an MG. First, the gun does not have to be converted back to fullauto, only be made or forced to run in full auto and the window is currently 8 hours, not 18. The "readily restorable" regulation, applies to these semi-MGs just as it would to any firearm that ATF would test to determine if it functinos like an MG. ATF tech branch will employ quite a number of means to force the gun to fire full atuo, which is their objective to proof your design. It is alos their means to determine if a firearm that they acquire for testing is an MG.
It only takes two rounds with one pull of the trigger, FOR ANY REASON, which now a legal precedent, recently established as part of the court record from the Olafson case. This is a very serious precedent for every gun owner, not just those with semi-MGs. And, one never knows who will hear gunfire from some place, complain to the cops that they hear an MG, and the fats in the fire, so to speak. Has happened to me several times test firing customer's MGs without even firing FA!.

>In all my builds I go way overboard on modifying them to prevent the original parts from ever fitting in them and working.<

Well and good, but the point you are missing is that ATF will make your SEMI-MG run full auto if they can, regardless of how much you modify the parts, and regardless if orignal FA parts no longer fit. You have built a NEW firearm and if they can make it fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger, then it is an MG.
Only ATF can determine if your semi-MG complies with the design requirements and functions to their satisfaction as a semi-MG, not the builder, which is another common misconception of semi_MG builders. The common reply I hear is that "if I do this and that, then I don't need an approval because I have done the right things". This is a serious error in judgement. ATF reserves the sole authority to themselves to make the determination that the design cannot be made to fire more than one round per pull of the trigger.
At this point, only a couple of the semi-MG shooters that I know have had to prove to range officers, and in both case local cops who were summoned, that their guns are semi and not MGs. One had a plate that was incscribed along with the plate maker's ID that it was a semi automatic mcahinde gun, a 1917A1. The other fellow had to follow up with the cop and show proof that he had a legal basis for his gun, which was a copy of his ATF design approval from the builder of his 1910 Maxim. This was not entertaining for either of these guys.

Hope this helps to provide a more comprehensive view.

A minor bit of history with the Schewarzlose kits from which your dummy was made: along with Walt Newman from IMA, I torch cut up all those guns for import as kits up at the Century Arms bonded warehouse in St Albans, VT, a few hours north of where I live. It has been interesting to see what has become of those kits as well as all the other MGs that we cutup.

Bob Naess

[Bil]

Bob,as a true MG afficionado,it must have been hard to cut up all those perfectly good MGs! But a job is a job!
---bil Thanks for the informative comments above.

[dwmmg08]

Very nice Bob, is that 4 or 5 Schwarzloses? I'm trying to figure out what the gun is in the row behind the Schwarzloses, it looks like a 1917, but the jacket and the height look like the Schwarzloses in front of it. Are they all transferables?

Yes, You are down in my list of people I happen to envy a little with all those 07/12's...

Very interesting discussion on the semi-auto mg's.

I recall seeing pictures of another very rare gun, an original German-used Madsen "Muskete" LMG from WWI, at a north country shoot years ago. Is that yours too?

[oakrodent]

Bob, I have no interest in getting into this with you, I don't know you and you don't know me, plus I really don't care. Just to let other people on the forum know, that an approval for one person is not an approval for everyone. This is directly from an ATF tech agent! Maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

[www.Prussia.us]

Oak,

Nice work inside and out.

Another historic gun rides again

[IMBLITZVT]

Schwarzlose 4.JPG

Bob, Is the gun in the front row on the far right a Dryse MG18? If so is it possible that this is a rear sight for that gun? First pictures in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9729&p=74351&hilit ... ght#p74351

First, the gun does not have to be converted back to fullauto, only be made or forced to run in full auto and the window is currently 8 hours, not 18.

Bob, you we agree on most of this kind of stuff. However if I recall this is only an opinion given by one judge in one court case. This is not ATF doctrine. Am I wrong? If I got it correct we really need to stop repeating this! 8 hours in a machine shop can turn ANY gun or even incomplete collection of gun parts into a MG! Every semi auto gun owner in the county has a MG. This about it, in 8 hours you can make a simple tube gun from scrap steel and get it to fire two rounds. So this 8 hour thing is meaningless... Lets face it, anyone with an ATF approved 1919a4 semi, a FA bolt and trigger and a grinder can have a working FA gun in under an hour if they are taking their time!

Also it was my understanding that FFL looking to make a firearm for sale to the public must get there own ATF approval letter even if they are coping someone elses semi design that has been aready approved. Is this wrong?

I do agree that there are a lot of home build semis out there that would not get past the ATF. Many people do not understand the basics of this and make semis that would take a few mins to convert back. However after seeing the approved semi MP44s... I am not sure anyone can know for sure what the ATF will approve... swing down lower and safety sear on a semi... Given all that I got a feeling given the level of this build, he is probably ok.