Receivers from BRP

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Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:46 pm

First let me say "Hello". New member here, but I did leave an official Hello at the new members page. I've been looking thru the older "How to build" posts and checking the web, and it seems that BRP is the only place currently listing a semi auto receiver, and they on back order? Does this sound correct, or am I unaware of other resources? The membership here seems very experienced, and with your help I'd like to make a working semi MG 53 from my parts kit. I'll be needing some parts like barrels which should be easy enough to find, but the basic building block is the receiver and I can't seem to find one.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:54 am

Welcome to the site.

Besides BRP, Global Machine and tool makes a good set of receiver shells for the MG42/53. If you have a M53 kit that has the camming section cut off (no camming windows), the the GM receivers shells would be a good option because they are longer having the camming area included. They run about $250-300 depending on if they are on sale. There may be other options, but those are all I'm familiar with.

https://www.facebook.com/GlobalMachineandTool

Best places for related parts are; BRP, GM, Apex, and RTG. Sometimes Wiselite has parts. Numrich has some parts and accessories too. Between all of them you can find all your build needs for this type of gun.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:28 am

Went to Global Tools website and all they list are parts for Uzi repair. I sent them an email anyway, hoping for the best. If any of the membership has an extra set of receiver panels I would be more than willing to purchase them. Also tried RTG, and they list the parts as out of stock.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:26 pm

I wanted to take a moment to thank Der Alder for his lead about Global. I sent them an email earlier today and received a follow up phone call from the owner. As it happens, he has a set of receiver shells, along with the charging handle guide. The order was placed and now I have one less thing to look for. Thanks so much.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:15 pm

Glad to be of help. GM is great to deal with BTW. They ship very fast too. If you need anything else give a shout. One other thing you might want to consider getting is a rear MG3 receiver stub from RTG, they are like $35.

You can splice them on (how I build mine), but also even if you don't use it in your build it is very helpful IMO to have a complete rear section in hand to study and copy.

The rear buffer cuts near the stock, the cuts on the inside, the relief opening, the charging handle slot, the buffer latch rivet/hole and remnants of the ratchet plate and its slot are all there. If you are like me, its one thing to have a blueprint, buts its another to have the part in hand to replicate.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:17 pm

Thanks again Der Alder. I saw those on the RTG webpage but didn't see the details you described. They have several other pieces of receivers too. Would those also be useful? Ideally I would like to purchase one of the 3 or 4 cut demilled receivers, just exactly for what you described, have a part in hand instead of on paper. Are those still available? Anyone else know? As I get further into this project I'll have lots of questions, for good or bad. Der Alder, have you done an actual build? I would really appreciate speaking to those members out there who have. I recall one of the member saying he was a Demel tool and drill press builder. Well that pretty much describes me too. I have a good MIG welder, no TIG, and have used my drill press in the past as a substitute milling machine. As a young man I was a machinist, so that makes me REALLY dangerous! I can whack fingers with the best of them.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:40 pm

Sorry Der Alder, I must have read right past the part where you said that using the demilled tail stub is how you build them. Just too excited I guess.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:31 pm

Yeah that would probably be me, the dremel is my mill :lol: as a garage builder. If you have some machining background you should be fine with this build.

I've built a couple, working on my 3rd right now. They are a fun build if you take your time.

With some patience, a lot of reading (and a lot of time) this type of build can be done with a mig, dremel, drill press, belt sander is helpful as is a bench grinder and some hand files. Your most important tool is a dial caliper IMO. Along with about 2 bulk packs of dremel cut-off wheels :lol:

If you plan on getting a .308 conversion from RTG I wouldn't wait too long as now even the .308 barrels are drying up from the vendors. 8mm barrels have gotten very pricey and with the .308 barrels drying up finally I look for them to climb as well.

The crushed RTG receiver parts you mentioned could be helpful, depending on what you were trying to replicate but if you have a M53 kit with a shroud most probably would not be needed. Does your shroud have intact camming windows? If so it makes it easier, if not not it can still be done its just harder.

Depending on the look you want, the used RTG MG3 front bushing (not the whole front section, just the bushing) is super easy to fix the front of most of the Yugo shrouds. Square up the end to the correct length and the MG3 bushing slips right in like its made for the Yugo shroud. I can give you the measurements there if you need them.

Using the rear German MG3 section I mentioned is a short cut, but the downside is it makes for a 2nd splice to weld and align. The upside of using it is you won't need to deal with the buffer cuts inside or installing buffer plates (no riveting). Using the MG3 rear stub also means you'll need a German buffer and stock. The bakelite stock looks much better anyway IMO.

I'd recommend too grabbing a set of new MG3 rails from RTG. They are undrilled. I like to tap them and use allen screws to hold them on. You can always rivet them later, though I left mine with screws. So you can do this whole build with no riveting this way :D . It's nice to be able to remove them in case you need to tweak the alignment or hit them on their outside on the belt sander to relieve a bolt that may be binding later in the build. You can use your M53 rails to give you a template of the hole locations.

Rail alignment is usually good if you just center the center of the rail with the center of the camming piece in the front. (draw a line down their center) For the rear if you use the rear section I mention the center of the buffer cuts is where the center of your rear rail should be. Be aware there is a right and a left rail, one is thinner on the bottom edge, this is the left rail and it is thinner because the recuperator is below it.

The German MG3 rear section also has the recuperator support built into the lower buffer tab, so you can use the MG3 recuperator as well. This means you can cut the recuperator support tail off of the M53 grip hanger and there will be no need to make the square hole cut behind the grip stick for it to go through (one less opening to make).

Also if you make sure your length is correctly measured from the camming window to the rear most edge (I can give you the specs if you need them) the recuperator support in the rear buffer tab will place your recuperator in the perfect position in relation to the barrel extension.

Another short cut for me is to use off the shelf semi auto parts. I use the BRP grip stick, bolt carrier and bolt blocker. Both will probably need tweaked for your particular gun (as by design), we can get into that later too if you go that route. BRP also sells a long bolt and nut for the camming piece for like $5 which is nice for temporally installing it till you get through testing and finishing.

Last but not least I'd recommend some German manuals from John here to get familiar with the parts, operation and maintenance of this platform. Couple that with a free semi-auto BRP manual you can download to help you with the semi auto aspects, semi charging procedure and such. There is a ton of info here if you search as well.

PS. I see you are in NE OH, I'm in NW PA near the Ohio border, so if you get to where you need help I can give you my contact info.

Good luck.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:41 pm

Thanks for the info. I have ordered the manuals from john, the first two found on his website. As for camming windows and such, still too much of a noob to be familiar enough to know what you're talking about. I've been trying to familiarize myself with the parts in my kit. Seems the trunion pin is missing, and a small spring from the feed paws. I thought about doing the .308 conversion, but right now money is tight. I got into this without realizing how much I would sink in beyond the cost of the kit. My kit didn't come with a barrel so the .308 costs could be easier to take since I have to buy a barrel. My first rifle build was an FAL, so I have more .308 ammo than 8mm. I like the idea of using the german rear section, as it pre- sets the diameters and has the buffers tabs already in. Since you've done this before, the short cuts and knowledge you've gained are invaluable to someone like myself. Here's my first dumb question. Do the rails get installed before the receiver shells are tacked together or after? And I've read several articles here disliking the riveting and saying they prefer welding. What's your take on this? And the recuperator looks tricky as far as placement. I understand its function is to push the barrel forward, but...
As I said, lots of questions for my old brain. Once my manuals come in this will start to make more sense. And thanks again for helping an old dog learn a new trick.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:58 pm

Der Alder, it's getting late and I must be tired. I reread your response and picked up on a couple of things I missed the first time. The Yugo buffer won't fit the German tail section? And after looking at 8mm barrels for $300 the .308 conversion is looking like a deal. I also was reading some of the other posts, and if I got this right, part of the semi conversion has to make the receiver unable to accept the full auto trigger stick? I can see where using pre converted trigger groups and bolts would speed up the process too. Not trying to be noisy but ballpark what is the final cost on a build like this going to be?

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:02 am

A lot of things really come down to build preference. Some install the rails before, I like to install them later in the build. Some rivet them (which is the factory way) though Ive seen some guys weld them.

My thing is if I need to tweak them later and I find that out late in the build both of those ways are going to be a problem. Thats like removing the recuperator with a rail in place on a semi-auto with a bolt blocker can be a challenge. Which is why I use screws on the rails. I'm just saying what works for me.

The rails are not under any great stress and I've never had a problem with screws. I figure its just a semi clone anyways. In the end it comes down to looks or ease for the builder or preference. You'll have to decide.

You mention your trunion pin is missing. Some of the vendors and builders call the camming piece(s) the trunion. The manuals make no mention of a trunion, but call it a camming piece, so that is what most of us call it. That said if you mean the top cover pin that goes on the camming piece, Apex has them in stock. If you mean the long rivet that hold the pieces together, RTG or BRP should have those. I should note that the "camming windows" I mentioned or openings are the square holes near the rear end of your kit's shroud. If they are not there then you have a shroud that was cut short.

On the buffer, the Yugo and German buffers are close but different. One, the threads for the stocks have a different pitch, two the German MG3 buffer has a cut for the longer MG3 recuperator. I've heard of a few guys who could get their Yugo buffer to fit into the German MG3 rear stub, but none of mine fit.

At one time it was far cheaper to stay with the 8mm setup, but now with the cost of 8mm barrels over $300 and being that you can get an MG1 conversion set with the barrel, top cover, FT, booster and bearing for $350...couple that with you say your 8mm cover is missing parts and the .308 may be a better deal for you.

On a legal semi conversion the FA grip stick can not fit into your receiver. If you download the BRP blueprints from their site, make the appropriate mods and use a semi grip stick you are good there.

You must also weld into place a blocker so that a FA bolt carrier can not be inserted (I would do this soon after you weld the shells together, so no one gets the wrong idea of your intent). Basically the bolt blocker, semi bolt carrier combined with a semi grip is all you need to convert to semi.

My costs have been $1200-$1500 when its all said and done. But I use the off the shelf parts which hike the cost. Some guys make their own B/C and G/S and such. Back when they came when intact barrels it was a lot cheaper too.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:54 am

Hi Der Alder, The screws sound like a great idea. What type of head on the screws? Cap, round? The camming windows are still in my shroud, so that's a lucky break. I see the BRP kits come with the semi blocker, but I don't know if the set from Global will. No big deal. I think my plan will be to slowly build up a pile of parts before I start assembly. Still waiting for my manuals so I can speak intelligently. Yes the trunion must be the camming piece you speak of, and there's no long rivet for it. Another small piece, could a bolt be used there? I really do appreciate the guidance. For welding the shells together, did you use a jig? I've seen some that other members used to keep the should and shell straight, they don't look too difficult to cobble together.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:52 pm

The screws I used on the rails can be found at home depot. They are marked on the packet; Cap screw/Button socket #6-32 x 1/2" 3.5. You can also buy the drill and tap for them as a set there too; Dewalt 6-32 nc drill bit #36 SAE.

The screws come in packs of 2, you will need 10, I'd suggest 12-14 for spares. As you will probably cut a couple too short like I have. These will need to be cut down in length. I just stuck each one in a vise and zipped them off with dremel cut off wheel.

Having an intact camming section on your shroud with intact windows will be a big help for a first time builder. Thats great news and will be so much easier. The GM shells come with a camming section so they are great for builds that need them, but in your case I would just cut the front GM section off that you won't be needing. Just take enough off the rear edge to square it and no more, you want to leave all the original shroud as you can.

I like to get the slag from the torch cleaned off first and temporary install the camming peice. You can use this as a straight locating point to square the rear edge of the shroud too. I take something like a flat file and lay it on the rear edge of the CP, find the lowest point of the torch cut and square it to that if you know what I mean.

The GM set of shells do not come with a bolt blocker. I use the one BRP sells, some guys will use a bolt or something, but the BRP blocker was the one approved by the ATF so for like $20, it is worth it IMO and its a nice design.

I'm waiting for BRP to restock their bolt carriers and will need a grip stick as well. I like theirs because it allows use of an unmodified bolt with their one piece firing pin design. I have a Wiselite set up as well and it requires the bolt head to be modified (drilled and a bushing installed) and uses a 2 piece firing pin design. They both work. Of the 2 types I kind of prefer the BRP over the WLA so thats what I'm using again on my current build. Both the grip stick's hammer (AR type) and bolt carrier will probably need to be fitted (by design). It's pretty easy and we can more into that when the time comes if needed.

The manuals will be a big help for you to make sense of all this (I know the feeling BTW, been there).

On the camming piece, I'd recommend getting both the long rivet and the long bolt and nut BRP sells for this purpose (its like $5). With the bolt and nut you can install the CP temporary and test fire it and such, then take it back off to finish the gun. You can then rivet it or stay with the bolt and nut, depending on if you care about the looks. I kept my MG3 clone with the bolt and nut because my weld is under the CP. This way I can take the CP off and check the welds once in a while, at least till I get a few more thousand rounds through it.

For welding the shells I didn't use a jig. If it were a cut up receiver a jig would be needed, but for our purpose IMO a jig is not needed. The GM shells I've used so far have been very close in width to the original specs. So all I do is figure out where I don't need to weld (ejection port, grip stick port, most of the top center) so as not to put any more heat into it than is needed.

I then bevel the areas that will be welded for better penetration, but keep the non welded seams un-beveled. This way those un-beveled areas can give it support while you take a big C-clamp to clamp the shells together. Then just stitch weld it a little at a time. I like to start near the center do about an inch, flip it over do about an inch and keep alternating pushing the welds outward which keeps the warpage and stress to a minimum.

Allow it to cool enough to hold it by hand after about 1/3 way, then start again and go back and start filling in the stitched areas skipped before. Doing it this way I haven't had any warp so far. Keep some copper on hand like a piece of flatten copper pipe in case you blow through, you can put the copper under the hole and build it back up, use a piece if tin or something to hold the copper in place under the hole. Another little trick if using a mig welder to cut down on spatter clean up I like to take some aluminum foil or scrap some sheet metal an lay to the sides of the welds. Cuts down on clean time/grinding.

I'm by no means any welder, just a garage builder with a cheap wire welder that figured out what works for me :lol: . You can use the same process for joining the splices to the shroud. The biggest thing there when dealing with the splices is grinding or using a belt sander and getting the joined sections as square as possible for the tightest fit. This will lesson your warping and keep it as straight as possible if it fits tight and straight to begin with.

Fitting and measuring is where you want to take your time. With no mill I cut my sections a tad long with a dremel and then bring them into specs (proper length) on the belt sander a little at a time squaring them. My belt sander is a just a hand held type I flip over and chuck into my vise. I use a peice of window pain glass for a flat block to gage my fitting along with a small carpenters square on the few areas flat enough to use one on these guns.

For those spliced areas, instead of a jig I take a piece of threaded rod and some scrap metal with some nuts and washers and pull it together before welding....same with the front bushing.

BTW, I'm in the middle of a build making an MG1 clone (did a MG3 clone last year) and also have a WLA M53. I'm taking pics of each step along the way for a hand tool garage build using all the short cuts to make it easier for a first time builder. If there is enough interest here I can post it as a tutorial which should help you with yours. There are several tutorials out on the internet, most are very good. but most were done a few years ago and there are more options now and many assume you have a mill so that's why I was thinking of doing one.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:49 pm

I know what you mean about welding, I consider myself more of a burner than a welder. But if I take my time a I can throw a good bead. Thanks for all the tips on assembly, it's so nice to talk to someone who has been there. Your explanations are well thought out, because you have "been there and done that". I had no idea that there were differences in the "looks" of the different guns. If I get the .308 conversion and the MG3 rear tail piece will it resemble an MG3? Just curious, and I've gone to RTG and started a wish list there. The front bushing you were talking about is the one found on their website, right? By Rhinemetall I saw the built in shoulder on it and looks like a natural fit. I've built several AR15's so I'm familiar with the trigger/sear arrangement. Whats the deal with the BRP trigger stick, do they manufacturer the small cage that hold the AR parts? Those AR triggers are nickle -dime pieces, if I had the cage it wouldn't be tough to make it. I also saw the post about a fella using FAL metric hammer/trigger componets. Those are pretty inexpensive too. Having built a FAL I have a few spares from that I might could use, but the AR looks easier. On the BRP website you can save about $100 using their first design trigger, so I have to ask, is there a problem with it? But I'm probably getting ahead of myself. I'll be in the parts acquisition mode for a while yet. Since I'm newly retired I have way too much time on my hands. It might be worthwhile for me to try to build some of the small parts like triggers and such to save cash and become more familiar with this beast. I'm gonna be finishing up a 1911 build soon, so I'll be able to focus on the MG. And by the way, if I haven't offered yet, if I can help you in any way I'll be glad to do so to repay your kindness. Feel free to ask, I've been a computer tech for 30+ years, and a gear head on top of that building small block chevy's and Harley's too. Been spinning wrenches since I was 12.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby roadrunner » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:06 am

Welcome to the site rodom.
This is a great place with a ton of useful info and helpful members. Der alder has you going in the
Right direction.
As far as the brp gripstick mods. go, I used the cage he sells and milled the original grip to fit it.
He has them for 25 bucks I believe. Going to order a few more for my current builds. Works real well
And looks a bit more original. The mods. could be done with some careful dremel and file work too.
The milled ones are nice and save you some work so you have to weigh that.
Be sure to download all the blueprints from brp and print them out. Really useful info there. Also you did the right thing ordering Johns german manuals.
Good building to you and keep us posted.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:33 am

I just wanted to thank John Baum, as I received my manuals from him yesterday. Packed full of great information and maybe after a week or two of reading I might be able to speak intelligently when chatting about our subject matter.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby JBaum » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:35 pm

Glad you like your manuals. :)

As you can see by the above messages, any questions not covered in the manuals are gladly answered by the great guys on this board.
John@German<remove this>Manuals.com

http://www.GermanManuals.com

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:03 pm

I don't mean to be boring you guys to death with my posts, but I just got my receiver shells from Global. Another big step forward. After a few more parts I think I'll be ready to tack a few things together. I have downloaded the prints from BRP, and with the prints and the manuals, I can see what Der Alder was saying about not welding places that were going to be milled. Has anyone used the Global shells? Just curious as to if I'll need to add some filler to get the outer diameter correct or if I'll get lucky and be able to buzz the halves together as is.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby Der Alder » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:30 pm

I've been away from the computer for a few days, didn't mean to leave you hanging. Thanks for the offer on your computer tech skills. Maybe someday one of us here could use them.

You are not boring us at all BTW :D , glad to see you are taking this semi build on and posting it here :wnana: . Sometimes I wonder if I get boring with my wordy posts, but I sometimes get on a roll and can't stop typing :lol: . I love working and learning about this platform which is why I can't stop building them now :lol: .

Sounds like you have the right mindset and skills to do this. My approach is I do this as a hobby as they are really fun builds if you take your time. I can't stress measuring and fitting enough though.

I'll work on it for a fews days, then take a break and do other things and sometimes not get back to it for weeks. That said you can not read too much prior to doing this and your approach of learning first is the correct way of such a build. Not only did I first read manuals (lots of manuals), but I literally went back through hundreds of posts here and on other boards before I started to grind on anything.

Depending on how you are planning to build this (there as infinite ways) and the methods I mention are only one of many. Mine differing as being hand tool and thus time consuming. There are some very talented builders that I learned from, Pirate, Oak, Flem, Road Runner, Mech Warrior, not to mention John's infinite knowledge as well. I read countless tutorials and posts before starting mine. You can read through them all and pick which methods you like depending on your tools and what direction you want to take your gun in (German wartime, post war, Yugo, MG1, MG3, etc. We are blessed with some very good people in regards to these guns including vendors and suppliers, RTG, BRP, GM, Apex are all very good to deal with.

With all that said, to answer your question, I've used the GM shells on my last 2 builds, including my current one. The 2 sets I've used thus far was the correct dia. both inside and out without grinding. You can double check this with your dial caliper. Check the inside and outside of your kit's shroud and if you get one of those rear stubs I mentioned as well (both should be the same). If your shells when clamped together measure the same you should be good.

If you are planning on building/riveting the rear buffer area vs cutting it off and using the rear RTG German stub section, then perhaps you may want to plan on making your buffer cuts into the inside of the shells before you weld them together. That and maybe make the opening for the charging handle as this too IMO is easier to at least rough in while you can still get to both sides.

Another thing I do is bevel the areas I plan to weld for better penetration. You could shim it instead, but that will make it too wide so you would have to grind it to compensate if you know what I mean.

I've found if I bevel only the areas to weld the areas that I don't weld (ejection port, GS opening, most of the top center) those areas will give you solid support when you clamp it together prior. After it is beveled in these areas and clamped you can take a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut thin slots between which will aid to with adhesion having a small gap.

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Re: Receivers from BRP

Postby rodom » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi DerAlder,
Thanks for following up with me. I've been doing some eye-ball measuring, and it looks like I'll trim my shroud just after the camming windows, where the top rolls down. Probably cut it there just before the curve, and then trim the GM parts to form that curve by the camming area. As for overall length I won't cut anything until I have the tail piece. One thing that bothers me is there's a raised area near the camming window that will be trimmed off, but the GM piece doesn't have this square area. Also I didn't understand what you were going for when you said you welded the areas not cut away then used a demel to cut slots? And I was also wondering if you had used a cutoff tool to cut pieces to length. Lot sturdier than a demel cut off wheel. As you had also said earlier, it looks like I'll be able to keep the camming windows and my welds will be under the camming piece.


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